Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

[Cosmos1985]

I don't really know which thread this is supposed to go into, but doesn't it somehow feel... wrong, that only Venice is a Merchant Republic from the start, and have Genoa being a feudal monarchy and what's not? Maybe it's too late to start messing around with this, with all the balancing needed etc., but it would be great if Venice and Genoa could just get that right from the start both of them, and then give Venice a new UP - they don't seem to do so well in most of my games anyhow. Maybe the dutch Vanilla UP; naval units can enter enemy territory? Or would that seem counter-intuitive to the mighty fleets of Venice, who fought their way through? I don't know. Maybe a bonus to the Venice-city exclusively, to make it the powerhouse it was, 2 extra trade routes maybe... or the ability to Gold-rush stuff there from the start? Nah, would probably be OP. And hard to code. Anyway, I'm just thinking aloud - would just love to see Genoa as merchant republic also.

Other suggestions for another Venice UP, just brainstorming really: all-around bonus to naval production - 10-20%? , a combat bonus to all naval units (the one for the english in vanilla RFC seemed quite useless though).. naval units get more xp after winning battles, you get G when defeating enemy naval units?

 

[Opera]

Actually, gold-rushing from the start (or maybe a tech) would be nice for Venice; or the naval production bonus.

But then, not sure Genoa and Venice should be Merchant Republics. If it isn't a UP, that means they'd have it unlocked from start, meaning other civs would too.

 

[AbsintheRed]

But then, not sure Genoa and Venice should be Merchant Republics. If it isn't a UP, that means they'd have it unlocked from start, meaning other civs would too.

I may know it wrong, but this can be adjusted by a single setting in the WB file
Venezia also doesn't have the tech needed for Merchant Republic

 

[Michael Vick]

I don't really know which thread this is supposed to go into, but doesn't it somehow feel... wrong, that only Venice is a Merchant Republic from the start, and have Genoa being a feudal monarchy and what's not? Maybe it's too late to start messing around with this, with all the balancing needed etc., but it would be great if Venice and Genoa could just get that right from the start both of them, and then give Venice a new UP - they don't seem to do so well in most of my games anyhow. Maybe the dutch Vanilla UP; naval units can enter enemy territory? Or would that seem counter-intuitive to the mighty fleets of Venice, who fought their way through? I don't know. Maybe a bonus to the Venice-city exclusively, to make it the powerhouse it was, 2 extra trade routes maybe... or the ability to Gold-rush stuff there from the start? Nah, would probably be OP. And hard to code. Anyway, I'm just thinking aloud - would just love to see Genoa as merchant republic also.

Other suggestions for another Venice UP, just brainstorming really: all-around bonus to naval production - 10-20%? , a combat bonus to all naval units (the one for the english in vanilla RFC seemed quite useless though).. naval units get more xp after winning battles, you get G when defeating enemy naval units?

I say we either take merchant republic away from both and make it available at a much earlier tech, or give it to both and that is fair since most monarchies here start with monarchy civics. I like the gold-rushing UP for Venice too. Or + 1 or 2 trade routes in every city/ +extra gold on every trade route. The more money they make the better, because I predict that we'll eventually have a much, much better choice of mercenaries for the Venetians. (I'm hoping for Condottieri, Swiss, etc.) This way both merchant republics will be able to rely on mercenaries and not bother with actually raising armies. More production for ships and buildings. Should work out nicely.

And even though it might encourage ahistoric civs (smaller ones like Norse, Cordoba) to adopt it, merchant republic should support an extra city or two before going unstable. Venice and Genoa have a lot of good, historic cities to found. More than 3 each. Maybe merchant republic should give 1 stability point for the rate of income? If you're getting +30 gold per turn, your stability is boosted by 3 points, of you're losing 20 gold per turn you're unstable by 2..

 

[AbsintheRed]

Maybe merchant republic should give 1 stability point for the rate of income? If you're getting +30 gold per turn, your stability is boosted by 3 points, of you're losing 20 gold per turn you're unstable by 2..

Income greatly varies as the game progresses, so something like this would be extremely unbalanced

 

[Cosmos1985]

I say we either take merchant republic away from both and make it available at a much earlier tech, or give it to both and that is fair since most monarchies here start with monarchy civics. I like the gold-rushing UP for Venice too. Or + 1 or 2 trade routes in every city/ +extra gold on every trade route. The more money they make the better, because I predict that we'll eventually have a much, much better choice of mercenaries for the Venetians. (I'm hoping for Condottieri, Swiss, etc.) This way both merchant republics will be able to rely on mercenaries and not bother with actually raising armies. More production for ships and buildings. Should work out nicely.

And even though it might encourage ahistoric civs (smaller ones like Norse, Cordoba) to adopt it, merchant republic should support an extra city or two before going unstable. Venice and Genoa have a lot of good, historic cities to found. More than 3 each. Maybe merchant republic should give 1 stability point for the rate of income? If you're getting +30 gold per turn, your stability is boosted by 3 points, of you're losing 20 gold per turn you're unstable by 2..

I absolutely agree that it would be even better if Merchant Republic would come earlier in the tech tree, but if it has to be balanced, I don't think it should be buffed, rather the opposite. What is other peoples opinion on this? As far as I remember the only bonus from feudal monarchy, which would be your only alternative in the start, is some free units and +1 from barracks, and that is quite easily offset from the gold bonus from MR - so if you also make MR more attractive when it comes to stability, wouldn't you then take away feudal monarchies only real advantage compared to it? I'm not an expert on this at all, but it also seems to me that it would be logical that you would have some more issues with stability if you ran your country as a Merchant Republic being England or Kievan Rus or Cordoba, but I don't know - hopefully smarter people than me can come up with some more qualified guesses as to which consequences that would have.

In any case, the tl;dr-version: I agree that it is a good idea to move Merchant Republic to way earlier in the tech tree, we just have to be careful about balance imo Would be awesome to give other civs the option to run it also, even if it's not historical, but it should have some offsets. Basicly, what I'm trying to say is I guess the following: why WASN'T more civs Merchant Republics? The answer to this question should provide us with a plausible deterrent to choose it, gameplay-wise.

Edit: I haven't played enough to have a qualified opinion on how much a minus the added WE you get from MR matters, this should probably have been mentioned to make it a fair presentation of the dilemma - but in any case, let's hear some more opinions on this.

 

[AdrienIer]

In My Opinion.

 

[rock_star]

Don't fear Merchant Republic - I run it all the time as a massive empire. The instability penalty does not appear to be cumulative, and I'm not even sure there is a penalty.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10611625&postcount=9

(The third pic also shows why tieing stability to gold rate would be a bad idea. )

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yeah, I already planned to fix this
Merchant Republic should get huge stability penalty when used by massive empires
Just as the first step: Imperialism and Merchant Republic used together should get -1 stability for every city

 

[Cosmos1985]

Don't fear Merchant Republic - I run it all the time as a massive empire. The instability penalty does not appear to be cumulative, and I'm not even sure there is a penalty.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10611625&postcount=9

(The third pic also shows why tieing stability to gold rate would be a bad idea. )

I think that proves my point a bit

More opinions on extending MR to Genoa and giving Venice a new UP, or moving MR earlier in the tech tree?

 

[Michael Vick]

MR earlier in the tech tree. My opinion.

 

[Caliom]

I think that proves my point a bit

More opinions on extending MR to Genoa and giving Venice a new UP, or moving MR earlier in the tech tree?

I agree with you. Genoa should get MR on start too. And classic feudal civs should be discouraged to choose MR. For the human player we should increase the instability penalty. Maybe add a penalty when you switch from a feudal civic to MR, this wouldn't hurt genoa and venice.
We could try to specialize MR more. What about lower mercenary costs and higher unit building costs. But this would conflict with the genoan UP.

 

[3Miro]

Pu the Merchant Republic at a tech right at the time of Genoa spawn. Maybe Map Making.

The Merchant Republic is just very fitting to the Venetians as they started with it so early.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Map making may be too early, but I agree that we can move MR earlier

 

[Veshta]

If cartography is too early and shipbuilding too late, there is always Clockmaking which already has a significant maritime trade context with the Hanseatic League.

Time wise it is quite appropriate as well as it should hit around 1050-1100 or so, the tail-end of the Viking age when the unruly Norse put aside the sword and took up trade in earnest.
Double bonus with penalty for monarchy->MR switch for my long Norse games as I rarely switch out of despotism until divine/limited monarchy due to stability being wonky at best (feudal law/state religion much better early on for Norse).

 

[AbsintheRed]

Clockmaking soudns better for me

 

[Cosmos1985]

So consensus is no change for Venice, and move MR up to clockmaking? I think we should nerf it though, in some way - with regards to stability, or something else. If it's available to all civs earlier.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Not totally sure
Maybe we can give MR to both Venice and Genoa on start, and both civs have some additional (and of course radically different) bonus as well for their UPs?

 

[ezzlar]

I read Genoa was independent around 800 AD, why the late start?

 

[Caliom]

Not totally sure
Maybe we can give MR to both Venice and Genoa on start, and both civs have some additional (and of course radically different) bonus as well for their UPs?

an additional bonus for genoa could be to give all units the amphibious promotion for free.