Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

[Nkot]

In regards to starting civilizations, this may be the wrong place to put this, but there is a very good map of Europe in 500 AD that you all might find useful:

http://www.euratlas.com/history_europe/europe_map_0500.html#%20here

Would have posted it if it hadn't been so big.

 

[st.lucifer]

In regards to starting civilizations, this may be the wrong place to put this, but there is a very good map of Europe in 500 AD that you all might find useful:

http://www.euratlas.com/history_europe/europe_map_0500.html#%20here

Would have posted it if it hadn't been so big.

I've been using those maps for independent cities - they really are great. Thanks for sharing - I feel bad that I didn't think to.

 

[Virdrago]

uhm, how and why would they have more historical significance ?
Bulgaria was much less an independent state than the Kingdom of Sicily (or Genoa) during the scenario's timeframe, and Genoa was more influential in the Black Sea than Bulgaria was. England's flag is the same of Genoa (St. George's cross) because the English King asked and obtained to pay for this privilege so that English fleets would be protected by Genoans in those waters.

Bulgaria was independent for far longer (690 to 1400; granted, they were under Byzantine rule for 100 of those years - Genoa was independent from 1100-1394), and was much more important to the Black Sea trade than Genoa. The Bulgarians ended the Arab seige of Constantinople in the 800s. They brought the Orthodox faith to the Russians. They even threatened the Byzantine Empire for a time, and warred against the Crusader states, as well as Hungary. Bulgaria covered most of the Balkans at one point, which only the Ottomans and later Austria have been able to do since.
BTW, the St. George's cross comes from The Byzantine Empire and Georgia, with whom Genoa were trading partners with. England adopted it when they went on the Crusades, and having a St. George's Cross helps, when the most powerful navy in the Eastern Mediteranean (Greek fire) has the same flag.

Great Moravia was powerful enough that the Pope let them conduct their Church services in Slavic (only Latin, Greek, and Jewish were allowed for any other nation - Latin for Western Europe, Greek and Jewish for the East). They slowed German (East Francian) expansion to the east, and converted the Western Slavs to Roman Catholicism (which is why Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic isn't Orthodox, and there is a large Catholic minority in Ukraine). It was the first unified Slavic state, and was powerful enough that the East Francians had to ally with the Magyars to defeat them, so they could settle the Slavic lands.

 

[onedreamer]

I only counted the period when the Bulgars actually settled in Bulgaria and were not a migrating barbarian people like many others around. That means the Bulgarian Empire from (rough dates) around 700 to 1000 and again from 1200 to 1400. Genoa has been a Republic from 1096 to 1797.
It's true that St. George's cross comes from Byzantium (that had been occupying Genoa) but the King of England asked GENOA the permission to adopt it. I won't answer on Moravia and the rest, what I think is clear is that Bulgaria hasn't been any more influential in Europe than Genoa and your claims of the contrary are lacking any real foundation. Now if you want to make an argument pro-inclusion of Bulgaria it's perfectly fine, but saying it was far more important than Genoa as a support argument is just plain wrong, and I proposed Sicily not because it could have ruled the whole world, but because of the lack of anything in that area and because it could be fun to play with. You know, you can propose some civ without necessarily scorn others.

 

[Virdrago]

Genoa was a republic until 1797, but was basically a vassal from 1394 onwards. I do apologize if it looked as if I was trying to scorn the Republic; it wasn't intended. I was hoping to have some discussion on other countries. Otherwise, I was trying to bring in civs others wouldn't see because
(a) they didn't exist after the 1500's, which means they weren't around in the last 250 of a 1000-1200 year timeline (Burgundy notwithstanding),
(b) they were from Eastern Europe, which seems to be an area that, from the postings I've read, was either settled late, was barbarian, or wasn't recognized as an important part of Europe (Russia notwithstanding),
(c) unless they actually beat a Western European power at some point, they would be automatically overlooked, which seems to be a basic tenet amongst many (not all, and I stress this) posters.

That being said, I find it a little disconcerting that the one poster who commented on modders not taking other suggestions and using only their ideas is the only one who posted a counterpoint to my suggestions. It seems your point was proven, and the list was finalized as soon as it was put up on this post, no matter what other posters may have suggested.

 

[st.lucifer]

Genoa was a republic until 1797, but was basically a vassal from 1394 onwards. I do apologize if it looked as if I was trying to scorn the Republic; it wasn't intended. I was hoping to have some discussion on other countries. Otherwise, I was trying to bring in civs others wouldn't see because
(a) they didn't exist after the 1500's, which means they weren't around in the last 250 of a 1000-1200 year timeline (Burgundy notwithstanding),
(b) they were from Eastern Europe, which seems to be an area that, from the postings I've read, was either settled late, was barbarian, or wasn't recognized as an important part of Europe (Russia notwithstanding),
(c) unless they actually beat a Western European power at some point, they would be automatically overlooked, which seems to be a basic tenet amongst many (not all, and I stress this) posters.

That being said, I find it a little disconcerting that the one poster who commented on modders not taking other suggestions and using only their ideas is the only one who posted a counterpoint to my suggestions. It seems your point was proven, and the list was finalized as soon as it was put up on this post, no matter what other posters may have suggested.

I'm sorry for not offering an opinion earlier - I've been in and out the last few days with a funeral and Thanksgiving holidays - the same may hold true for other American posters.

I thought Onedreamer articulated the concerns I had with Bulgaria pretty well - specifically the amount of time spent as a Byzantine or Turkish province, and the late end to the Bulgars' nomadic period. However, your points about control of the Balkans and importance in the Crusades (not to mention the importance of Bulgarian auxillaries as mercenaries and as parts of the Turkish army) are valid.

I'm a little less sold on Moravia, except perhaps as a precursor to Poland. Can you articulate your case in more detail? My main concerns with Moravia are that they weren't around for very long and that they occupy roughly the same historical territory as the Austria/Hapsburg homeland.

Eastern Europe could use more representation, and there's a fair amount of open space in the Balkans/Black Sea area. Rather than doing somersaults to code in the Normans, Bulgaria makes a lot of sense. UHVs: conquer/settle Balkans; take Constantinople, ?

 

[Virdrago]

I'm more into Bulgaria than Moravia, personally - Moravia would be more like a "Babylon" option, settle two or three cities and have a quick UHV before most other nations spawn. I was just trying to highlight a couple of ideas farther toward the old Eastern Bloc area. I do feel even the Mongols could have a place, though their UHV would probably be almost exactly like the one in RFC.

The last Bulgarian UHV could include the spread of Orthodox Christianity (if the Great Schism is going to be represented somehow), since they did actually bring it to many of the Eastern Slavs.

 

[Ajidica]

If your not sold on Bulgaria, they could be represented by either barbs or independents, and their invaisions to Byzantium could be represented with barb spawing.
And if you dont think Bulgaria was that powerful, for roughtly 100 years Byzantium was paying them tribute, and came within 1 day of taking Constantinople but then Khan Krum had a seziure and died of blood hemmorage. And if you still dont think they were that powerful, you need to read the either Byzantium: The Apogee, or Byzantium: The Decline and Fall.

NOTE: I am not a natonalistic Bulgarian or Hungarian, and I will accept it if there is a not room for them or they would be to short. If I remember correctly, they would spaw 770, fall to Basil II conquests ( i forget the year) and then respawn as Hungary, using the respawning of old civs mechanic in RFC.

 

[Algeroth]

I'm a little less sold on Moravia, except perhaps as a precursor to Poland. Can you articulate your case in more detail? My main concerns with Moravia are that they weren't around for very long and that they occupy roughly the same historical territory as the Austria/Hapsburg homeland.

The Hapsburg homeland occupy roughly the same historical territory as the Switzerland.

And the Great Moravia should be precrusor to Bohemie, if any. Poland have a very different roots, like the Hungaria, and Slovakia was state for first in the XX century.

I don't want to make the czech poles of RE, but there is something bleeding inside me when the Swithzerland is placed before Bohemia in historical signification.

I'm sure that many people here can argue that their city was a great site of learning/culture/religion/comerce. Well, can anyone else say that they managed to pass through a schizm-driven war, one hundred years before all cool kids started doing the same?

This could make a nice UHV for Bohemia. Found a religion before 1450, spread it to xx% of Europe before 1650, profit (perhaps Prague with the largest culture in 1xyz)

I'm not fond of Bohemia making it into the mod, but....Switzerland?

PS: And Bavoria should be at least independent Civ, they alwyas had little in common with rest of Prussia.

 

[Depravo]

If we are to have 'the Habsburgs', and I don't know whether it's ever good practice to name a civilization after a dynasty, it makes little sense to have them start where their ancestral lands were but where they eventually took hold in Austria.

 

[Algeroth]

I'm not sure if the house of Hapsburg is good choice for civ either. I don't want to object ot their signaficance in European history, I'm just not sure that current civ system can handle the fedual dynastic system. There was a little of Austrian identity till post WWII world. They consider themself "German" or "HRE"

 

[Disenfrancised]

kicking around some ideas on the current civ list. I'm also coming to think Sweden is fractionally better deserving of a slot than Sicily due to greater impact in the time period the Mod is planning to cover (since sicily is under the control of so many different states, it would be better as an independent).

Spoiler random ideas :

Current Civ List:
Western Europe (4)
Kingdom of Neustria (500 AD) -> West Francia (840 AD) -> France (990 AD)
UP: The power of the Seigneur (Farms give +2 gold till discovery of nationalism)
UB: Salon
UU: Musketeer
UHV: Unite historical France/France to the Rhine, Largest population in 1600, Paris the most cultured city in 1800
England (500 AD) -> Great Britain (Cities held)
UP: Either keep the current UP or The Power of Cottage Industry (Cottages give +1 Hammer)
UB: Stock Exchange
UU: Redcoat
UHV: Build the HEIC and 2 other colonial wonders, first to industrial age, highest GDP and Production in 1820.
Netherlands (1050 AD)
UP: The Power of the Polders (can build improvements on marshes as of they were grass lands)
UB: Dike (maybe move this and levees to engineering?)
UU: East Indiaman/Swiss Pikeman
UHV: Never lose a city, first to discover economics, corporation and constitution, build the VOC and 1 other colonial wonder.
Burgundy (500 AD) (Is this meant to be more the kingdom or Duchy?)
UP: The power of Dynastic alliance (similar but different to the Hapsburg one): vassals, military alliances, etc grant extra stability.
UB: Burgundian Monastery (more expensive christian monastery gives and extra 10% sci and +1 happy from wine and wheat, Richard the Justiciar (really the first Burgundian Duke) often gave refuge to persecuted monks – best I could think of, also could be said to represent later Trappist monks in Belgium )
UU: Some sort of heavier knight.
UHV: Control land from the North Sea to the Med (i.e having control of a tile at every longitude between X and Y) by 1400, Make France and the Netherlands vassals (or destroy them) by 1500, control X wine resources by 1300.


Iberian Peninsula (3)
Kingdom of Asturias (720 AD) -> Leon (920 AD) -> Crown of Castile (1230 AD)
-> Empire of Spain (1520 AD)
UP: The power of the Conquista (x3 money on city conquest, removal of non-State religions)
UB: Citadel
UU: Conquistador
UHV: Unite Spain by 1450, Conquer/vassalise Portugal, Italy and North Africa by 1650, Spread Roman Catholic Christianity to 50%/Build Mexican and Incan Conquests
Portugal (1100 AD)
UP: The power of Indian Trade (Spices, Sugar, Silks, other colonial resources, all give +50% Trade route income in the Portuguese capital).
UB: Feitoria
UU: Carrack
UHV: Build 3 Colonial Wonders before 1600, have X gold in 1600, don’t lose a city before 1700
Al-Andalus (700 AD)
UP: The power of the (find Arabic word for farm): Can build farms without irrigation
UB: Madrassah (different from normal one, this one is an early and cheaper university that comes with Theology)
UU: Berber Cavalry (no movement costs on plains or deserts hills? Greater Withdrawal chance?)
UHV: Be the most scientifically advanced in 1000, Córdoba number one city in size and culture in 1000, never lose a city before 1400.

North & Central Europe (5)
Norse (500 AD) -> Union of Kalmar (1350) -> Denmark-Norway (1530).
UP: The power of Raid (same as the RFC one).
UB: Berserker
UU: Trading Post
UHV: Have X gold by 1500, conquer Britain by 1000, sink X ships
Kingdom of Austrasia (500 AD) -> East Francia (840 AD) -> Kingdom of Germany
(920 AD) -> Germanic States (1260 AD)
UP: The Power of the Marches (other cultures assimilate to the germans faster?)
UB: Rathaus
UU: Landsknecht
UHV: control X% of the map by 1000 (Otto the Great’s lands), have 6 cities east of the Vistula by 1400, build 6 cathedrals by 1600.
Lechia (970 AD) -> Poland (???) -> Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (1570 AD)
UP: The Power of Golden Liberty: Reduced distance corruption.
UB: Folwark (‘Farmhouse before the city’) Grocer which gives 10% extra gold and +1 health from wheat and corn.
UU: Hussar (Cavalry with greater withdrawal chance).
UHV: Largest land area and population in 1600, first to discover Constitution and Liberalism, No Polish-Lithuanian population under foreign control in 1800
Austria/House of Habsburg (1160 AD or 1280 AD)
UP: The power of inheritance (Independent cities much more likely to flip to Austria)
UB: The Schloss (castle in German, better name probably needed): Castle with an extra +5 culture.
UU: Landesschützen (Musketmen with free guerilla promotions)
UHV: Become Holy Roman Empire, Control Hungary, Bohemia, Southern Germany and northern Italy by 1620, Vienna as the most cultured city in 1800.
Old Swiss Confederacy (1290 AD) -> Switzerland (1650 AD?)
UP: Power of the Cantons: starts with Representation and Nationhood enabled.
UB: Landsgemeinden: Courthouse that gives +2 XP to melee and gunpowder units (‘provincal assembly’ where the canton meets and votes, in the olden days a Swiss male only needed to show his ceremonial sword or bayonet (hence the xp boost, representing Swiss militia service) to enter).
UU: Swiss Pikemen (Pikeman with Shock and Drill 2)
UHV: Conquer 6 cities before 1500, Never lose a city before 1800, have X gold in 1800

Eastern Europe (6)
Eastern Roman Empire (500 AD)
UP: I liked Ajidica’s ‘The Power of the Theodesian Walls’ give +100% defense to Constantinople that cannot be bombarded before gunpowder.
UB: Hippodrome
UU: Cataphract
UHV: Control Anatolia, The Balkans and Italy in 700 AD, Control Anatolia, The Balkans and Italy in 1200 AD, have X gold in 1200 AD
Kievan Rus (860 AD) -> Principality of Chernigov (1080 AD) -> Zaporozhian
Host? (1650 AD) -> Russian Empire (By Cities Held)
UP: The power of the Breadbasket: irrigated Farms give +1 Food (probably too powerful)
UB: Zernoskhovysche (Ukrainian for Granary): Replaces Granary, gives +1 trade route to show Ukrainian food exports.
UU: Cossack
UHV: Largest land area in 1000, all cities over size 4 have a monastery, aqueduct and courthouse in 1100, Survive to 1800
Vladimir-Suzdal (1090 AD) -> Grand Duchy of Moscow (1320 AD) -> Tsardom of
Russia (1547 AD) -> Russian Empire (By cities held)
UP: The power of general winter (same as RFC)
UB: ??
UU: Dvoryanin (a knight UU of some type )
UHV: Conquer Russia by 1600, Conquer the Russian empire (inc. Poland, Finland, Ukraine and the Causcuas) by 1850, Spread Orthodox Christianity to x%.
Magyars (900 AD) -> Kingdom of Hungary (1000 AD)
UP: Power of migration: Mounted units built with food prior to Theology.
UB: Magyar Stable (rip of the Mongolian Ger)
UU: Ungri Horsemen (rip of the Keshik)
UHV: Raze 6 cities by 1100, Control all the Lands of the Crown of St. Stephen in 1200, have 2 vassals by 1400
Ottoman Empire (1300 AD)
UP: Assimilation
UB: Hammam
UU: Janissary
UHV: All the ones from RFC work fine.
Umayyad Caliphate (660 AD) -> Abbasid Caliphate (750 AD) -> Fatimid
Caliphate (970 AD) -> Ayyubid Dynasty (1170 AD) -> Mamluk Sultanate (
1250 AD)
UP: Religion
UB: ‘Arab Courthouse’ gives extra gold depending on how much of the city is non-arab and the city size. Shows the tax on non-arabs and one of the drivign forces for expansion.
UU: Camel Archer
UHV: Spread Islam to 30%, Conquer North Africa, Spain and Italy by 1100 AD, Control 3 holy shrine cities in 1300 AD.

Italy (3)
Papal States (500 AD)
UP: The power of Papal Authority: +3 Relation with Roman Catholic States, +25 War weariness for Roman Catholics at war with the Pope.
UB: Seminary (university with 2 free priest specialists)
UU: Swiss Guard (Better macemen in some way)
UHV: Spread Roman Catholicism to 50%, X gold in X, Rome the most cultured city in 1800.
Republic of Venetia (800 AD)
UP: The power of Trade: 1 extra trade route in each city
UB: Venetian Arsenal (Drydock that comes with Guilds)
UU: Venetian Bireme (trireme with extra move and strength)
UHV: Control Northern Italy, Dalmatia, Greece and the Aegean by 1600 AD, have access to X different happiness resources by 1400 AD, have X gold by 1700 AD
Republic of Genoa (1000 AD)
UP: The power of Bargaining: Trade routes can go through enemy territory.
UB: Merchant House (Cheaper Bank that comes with Guilds)
UU: Genoan Galley (Galley with extra strength that can travel can travel rival territory
UHV: Control Northern Italy, Corsica, Sardinia, and Crimea by 1600 AD, have access to X different happiness resources by 1400 AD, have X gold by 1700 AD

 

[Algeroth]

The proposals aren' bad, but Portugal definetly needs a new UU, better ship deeply suck in this map.

I aslo don't see a protestant-based religion victory, so I will suggest adding bohemia as a playeble civ.

And the UHV for france are very...monarchistic. Why don't forcing x% of other civs to republic and free religion.

This also bring a good question. Have the civis been designed already?

 

[Zipzapzup]

Nice Work Disenfrancised.
Here some comments from me to some points:

Portugal (1100 AD)
UHV: Build 3 Colonial Wonders before 1600, have X gold in 1600, don’t lose a city before 1700
If we take the proposed map from st.lucifer it would be possible to add "Bring X Sugar resources under your control" (colonization of the azores and canary islands). And i agree to the point of Algeroth about the carrack.

Kingdom of Austrasia ...
UP: The Power of the Marches (other cultures assimilate to the germans faster?)
UB: Rathaus
UU: Landsknecht
UHV: control X% of the map by 1000 (Otto the Great’s lands), have 6 cities east of the Vistula by 1400, build 6 cathedrals by 1600.
UP isnt really fitting in my opinion but i dont know any better by now. And 6 catholic cathedrals would be many or did you think of the reformation?

Kievan Rus (860 AD) ...
UHV: Largest land area in 1000, all cities over size 4 have a monastery, aqueduct and courthouse in 1100, Survive to 1800
I would change it to "have x cities over size 4 with monastery etc." because otherwise everyone is whipping his cities down to size 3.

Papal States (500 AD)
UP: The power of Papal Authority: +3 Relation with Roman Catholic States, +25 War weariness for Roman Catholics at war with the Pope.
UB: Seminary (university with 2 free priest specialists)
UU: Swiss Guard (Better macemen in some way)
UHV: Spread Roman Catholicism to 50%, X gold in X, Rome the most cultured city in 1800.
Thought the Papals State is non-playable because its to mighty with the shrine of catholism. http://forums.civfanatics.com/member.php?u=39231

 

[jessiecat]

Interesting work so far, but I think the Iberia list and dates of the Reqonquista need some expansion. For instance:
By 790, Asturias and Princ. of Barcelona in the North (30% of Iberia)
Al Andalus comprising 70%
By 900, Asturias, Galicia, Leon, Aragon, Navarre and Barcelona
Al Andalus still comprising about 60%
900-1150, as above plus Portugal
Al Andalus ( Golden age of the Caliphate of Cordoba)
still nearly 50%
by 1300, as above but Portugal expanded to present boundaries(roughly)
Al Andalus reduced to Kingdom of Granada (10%?)
1492 - capture of Granada by Ferdinand and Isabella
Unification of Spain by above (Aragon and Castile)
The points I'm trying to make are these;
The period of the Reqonquista (750-1492?) is long and complicated.
The major players in that were Asturias and Leon in the beginning
and later Aragon And Castille (Why haven't you mentioned Aragon?
For much of this period the Christian states were minor backwaters
in European terms while Al Andalus (esp the Cordoban Caliphate) had
an enormous influence on European culture and science. It's they who
should be emphasized in the game, culturally rather than the primitive
Christian mini-states. Cordoba was the 2nd largest city in the known
world (after Constantinople) in 1000AD with science, medicine and the
arts unrivalled anywhere in Europe. The game should reflect it's
importance at least up to about 1100AD.

 

[Depravo]

I don't think Spain's goals should overlap so much with Portugal's. Historically they got on most of the time, and forcing them to fight each other for the win will be greatly to Portugal's disadvantage.

 

[st.lucifer]

kicking around some ideas on the current civ list. I'm also coming to think Sweden is fractionally better deserving of a slot than Sicily due to greater impact in the time period the Mod is planning to cover (since sicily is under the control of so many different states, it would be better as an independent).

Spoiler random ideas :

Current Civ List:
Western Europe (4)
Kingdom of Neustria (500 AD) -> West Francia (840 AD) -> France (990 AD)
UP: The power of the Seigneur (Farms give +2 gold till discovery of nationalism)
UB: Salon
UU: Musketeer
UHV: Unite historical France/France to the Rhine, Largest population in 1600, Paris the most cultured city in 1800
England (500 AD) -> Great Britain (Cities held)
UP: Either keep the current UP or The Power of Cottage Industry (Cottages give +1 Hammer)
UB: Stock Exchange
UU: Redcoat
UHV: Build the HEIC and 2 other colonial wonders, first to industrial age, highest GDP and Production in 1820.
Netherlands (1050 AD)
UP: The Power of the Polders (can build improvements on marshes as of they were grass lands)
UB: Dike (maybe move this and levees to engineering?)
UU: East Indiaman/Swiss Pikeman
UHV: Never lose a city, first to discover economics, corporation and constitution, build the VOC and 1 other colonial wonder.
Burgundy (500 AD) (Is this meant to be more the kingdom or Duchy?)
UP: The power of Dynastic alliance (similar but different to the Hapsburg one): vassals, military alliances, etc grant extra stability.
UB: Burgundian Monastery (more expensive christian monastery gives and extra 10% sci and +1 happy from wine and wheat, Richard the Justiciar (really the first Burgundian Duke) often gave refuge to persecuted monks – best I could think of, also could be said to represent later Trappist monks in Belgium )
UU: Some sort of heavier knight.
UHV: Control land from the North Sea to the Med (i.e having control of a tile at every longitude between X and Y) by 1400, Make France and the Netherlands vassals (or destroy them) by 1500, control X wine resources by 1300.


Iberian Peninsula (3)
Kingdom of Asturias (720 AD) -> Leon (920 AD) -> Crown of Castile (1230 AD)
-> Empire of Spain (1520 AD)
UP: The power of the Conquista (x3 money on city conquest, removal of non-State religions)
UB: Citadel
UU: Conquistador
UHV: Unite Spain by 1450, Conquer/vassalise Portugal, Italy and North Africa by 1650, Spread Roman Catholic Christianity to 50%/Build Mexican and Incan Conquests
Portugal (1100 AD)
UP: The power of Indian Trade (Spices, Sugar, Silks, other colonial resources, all give +50% Trade route income in the Portuguese capital).
UB: Feitoria
UU: Carrack
UHV: Build 3 Colonial Wonders before 1600, have X gold in 1600, don’t lose a city before 1700
Al-Andalus (700 AD)
UP: The power of the (find Arabic word for farm): Can build farms without irrigation
UB: Madrassah (different from normal one, this one is an early and cheaper university that comes with Theology)
UU: Berber Cavalry (no movement costs on plains or deserts hills? Greater Withdrawal chance?)
UHV: Be the most scientifically advanced in 1000, Córdoba number one city in size and culture in 1000, never lose a city before 1400.

North & Central Europe (5)
Norse (500 AD) -> Union of Kalmar (1350) -> Denmark-Norway (1530).
UP: The power of Raid (same as the RFC one).
UB: Berserker
UU: Trading Post
UHV: Have X gold by 1500, conquer Britain by 1000, sink X ships
Kingdom of Austrasia (500 AD) -> East Francia (840 AD) -> Kingdom of Germany
(920 AD) -> Germanic States (1260 AD)
UP: The Power of the Marches (other cultures assimilate to the germans faster?)
UB: Rathaus
UU: Landsknecht
UHV: control X% of the map by 1000 (Otto the Great’s lands), have 6 cities east of the Vistula by 1400, build 6 cathedrals by 1600.
Lechia (970 AD) -> Poland (???) -> Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (1570 AD)
UP: The Power of Golden Liberty: Reduced distance corruption.
UB: Folwark (‘Farmhouse before the city’) Grocer which gives 10% extra gold and +1 health from wheat and corn.
UU: Hussar (Cavalry with greater withdrawal chance).
UHV: Largest land area and population in 1600, first to discover Constitution and Liberalism, No Polish-Lithuanian population under foreign control in 1800
Austria/House of Habsburg (1160 AD or 1280 AD)
UP: The power of inheritance (Independent cities much more likely to flip to Austria)
UB: The Schloss (castle in German, better name probably needed): Castle with an extra +5 culture.
UU: Landesschützen (Musketmen with free guerilla promotions)
UHV: Become Holy Roman Empire, Control Hungary, Bohemia, Southern Germany and northern Italy by 1620, Vienna as the most cultured city in 1800.
Old Swiss Confederacy (1290 AD) -> Switzerland (1650 AD?)
UP: Power of the Cantons: starts with Representation and Nationhood enabled.
UB: Landsgemeinden: Courthouse that gives +2 XP to melee and gunpowder units (‘provincal assembly’ where the canton meets and votes, in the olden days a Swiss male only needed to show his ceremonial sword or bayonet (hence the xp boost, representing Swiss militia service) to enter).
UU: Swiss Pikemen (Pikeman with Shock and Drill 2)
UHV: Conquer 6 cities before 1500, Never lose a city before 1800, have X gold in 1800

Eastern Europe (6)
Eastern Roman Empire (500 AD)
UP: I liked Ajidica’s ‘The Power of the Theodesian Walls’ give +100% defense to Constantinople that cannot be bombarded before gunpowder.
UB: Hippodrome
UU: Cataphract
UHV: Control Anatolia, The Balkans and Italy in 700 AD, Control Anatolia, The Balkans and Italy in 1200 AD, have X gold in 1200 AD
Kievan Rus (860 AD) -> Principality of Chernigov (1080 AD) -> Zaporozhian
Host? (1650 AD) -> Russian Empire (By Cities Held)
UP: The power of the Breadbasket: irrigated Farms give +1 Food (probably too powerful)
UB: Zernoskhovysche (Ukrainian for Granary): Replaces Granary, gives +1 trade route to show Ukrainian food exports.
UU: Cossack
UHV: Largest land area in 1000, all cities over size 4 have a monastery, aqueduct and courthouse in 1100, Survive to 1800
Vladimir-Suzdal (1090 AD) -> Grand Duchy of Moscow (1320 AD) -> Tsardom of
Russia (1547 AD) -> Russian Empire (By cities held)
UP: The power of general winter (same as RFC)
UB: ??
UU: Dvoryanin (a knight UU of some type )
UHV: Conquer Russia by 1600, Conquer the Russian empire (inc. Poland, Finland, Ukraine and the Causcuas) by 1850, Spread Orthodox Christianity to x%.
Magyars (900 AD) -> Kingdom of Hungary (1000 AD)
UP: Power of migration: Mounted units built with food prior to Theology.
UB: Magyar Stable (rip of the Mongolian Ger)
UU: Ungri Horsemen (rip of the Keshik)
UHV: Raze 6 cities by 1100, Control all the Lands of the Crown of St. Stephen in 1200, have 2 vassals by 1400
Ottoman Empire (1300 AD)
UP: Assimilation
UB: Hammam
UU: Janissary
UHV: All the ones from RFC work fine.
Umayyad Caliphate (660 AD) -> Abbasid Caliphate (750 AD) -> Fatimid
Caliphate (970 AD) -> Ayyubid Dynasty (1170 AD) -> Mamluk Sultanate (
1250 AD)
UP: Religion
UB: ‘Arab Courthouse’ gives extra gold depending on how much of the city is non-arab and the city size. Shows the tax on non-arabs and one of the drivign forces for expansion.
UU: Camel Archer
UHV: Spread Islam to 30%, Conquer North Africa, Spain and Italy by 1100 AD, Control 3 holy shrine cities in 1300 AD.

Italy (3)
Papal States (500 AD)
UP: The power of Papal Authority: +3 Relation with Roman Catholic States, +25 War weariness for Roman Catholics at war with the Pope.
UB: Seminary (university with 2 free priest specialists)
UU: Swiss Guard (Better macemen in some way)
UHV: Spread Roman Catholicism to 50%, X gold in X, Rome the most cultured city in 1800.
Republic of Venetia (800 AD)
UP: The power of Trade: 1 extra trade route in each city
UB: Venetian Arsenal (Drydock that comes with Guilds)
UU: Venetian Bireme (trireme with extra move and strength)
UHV: Control Northern Italy, Dalmatia, Greece and the Aegean by 1600 AD, have access to X different happiness resources by 1400 AD, have X gold by 1700 AD
Republic of Genoa (1000 AD)
UP: The power of Bargaining: Trade routes can go through enemy territory.
UB: Merchant House (Cheaper Bank that comes with Guilds)
UU: Genoan Galley (Galley with extra strength that can travel can travel rival territory
UHV: Control Northern Italy, Corsica, Sardinia, and Crimea by 1600 AD, have access to X different happiness resources by 1400 AD, have X gold by 1700 AD

Man. That's a fantastic list. If we're doing monastic orders in place of corporations, what do you think of replacing 'build x cathedrals' with 'found teutonic knights in gdansk' for germany?

I wonder if we should go with making the papal states unplayable. The UHV goals and UU are playable (that UB may be too powerful, although they probably won't be able to build many of them) - but that'll be a weird one to play.

What did you think of the Bulgaria idea proposed earlier?

For the Kievan Rus - what about making each grain resource produce an extra food? Same basic principle, but less powerful - still enough to generate a few extra specialists. If one of the goals is survival, are we planning on having the Mongols show up in some way? You've transfered Mongol powers to the Magyars, which seems workable (as I don't know what they'd do as Hungary to differentiate themselves) - should we alter a Hungarian UHV goal to get them to go for the Kiev region?

We may want to de-emphasize some of the naval powers for those civs outside of the Mediterranean - the Portuguese UU and the British, Spanish, and Portuguese UP's aren't going to be very useful on the current map. For the cottage industry thing - is it just for cottages, rather than hamlets, villages, and towns? If so, that would be a neat power, providing a small boost in production for a limited number of turns. If that's the case, I approve wholeheartedly - if it's the whole chain from cottage to town, that's probably a bit too powerful.

I'm fine with leaving Sicily independent. The Norman experiment would be interesting, but seems like it would be difficult to code. I'd rather use the slot on a civ like Bulgaria or Sweden.

 

[Disenfrancised]

And 6 catholic cathedrals would be many or did you think of the reformation?

I was thinking of any type of cathedral, and 6 probably is a bit much.

Man. That's a fantastic list. If we're doing monastic orders in place of corporations, what do you think of replacing 'build x cathedrals' with 'found teutonic knights in gdansk' for germany?

Possibly could work. What are the proposed benefits of monastic orders?

I wonder if we should go with making the papal states unplayable. The UHV goals and UU are playable (that UB may be too powerful, although they probably won't be able to build many of them) - but that'll be a weird one to play.

It'd be a fun OCC if it was playable, and rather different game style from most of the other nations .

For the Kievan Rus - what about making each grain resource produce an extra food? Same basic principle, but less powerful - still enough to generate a few extra specialists. If one of the goals is survival, are we planning on having the Mongols show up in some way? You've transfered Mongol powers to the Magyars, which seems workable (as I don't know what they'd do as Hungary to differentiate themselves) - should we alter a Hungarian UHV goal to get them to go for the Kiev region?

I assumed the mongols were going to show up as a massive barbarian spawn at least, but also having the powerful nations Moscovy, P-L, Hungary, Austria, and Sweden all have territorial preferences to Kiev's lands should do the trick also . As regards the Magyars, the UHV is basically what they did - raid (those razed cities should be in germany and italy if they want to stay historical ), then settle down (and the full crown lands are quite large - its Croatia, Serbia, slovakia and most of Romania) and try to play power politics. I like the Kiev UP idea.

We may want to de-emphasize some of the naval powers for those civs outside of the Mediterranean - the Portuguese UU and the British, Spanish, and Portuguese UP's aren't going to be very useful on the current map. For the cottage industry thing - is it just for cottages, rather than hamlets, villages, and towns? If so, that would be a neat power, providing a small boost in production for a limited number of turns. If that's the case, I approve wholeheartedly - if it's the whole chain from cottage to town, that's probably a bit too powerful.

I agree (hence proposing different UPs), though Cottages and Hamlets would probably be better than a 10 turn boost.

I'm fine with leaving Sicily independent. The Norman experiment would be interesting, but seems like it would be difficult to code. I'd rather use the slot on a civ like Bulgaria or Sweden.

Ah, but which would get in?

Sweden
Kingdom of Sweden (1500, we should have at least some late spawning civs) ->Swedish Empire (1700)->Sweden-Norway (Cities held).
UP: The power of Stormaktstiden (50% Less Unit Maintence, as Imperial sweden did so much with so little).
UB: Swedish toll-house (Castle that gives an extra Trade route if water is in the city radius (like the Dike))
UU: Landsfänika (10% Cheaper Musketman with Drill 2)
UHV: Control Norway and every tile adjacent to the Baltic east of Malmo in 1700, Spread Protestantism/Lutherism to 15%, Defeat 150 units.

OR

Bulgaria
Old Great Bulgaria (630) -> Bulgarian Empire (800) -> Kingdom of Bulgaria (1840)
UP: The power of the Khan: No unrest in conquered cities.
UB: A stable that give happiness perhaps?
UU: Bulgar Horseman (Mounted Archer with bonus verses mounted units)
UHV: Control The Balkans, Greece and Thrace in 1000, Make the Eastern Roman Empire and 2 other nations vassals, build 2 Orthodox Cathedrals before 1100.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

I'd of course like Sweden in, but maybe the UP name could be changed to Power of Indelningsverket. It was a system where normal people had to maintain an army by feeding and giving shelter to the soldiers. Local farms and houses maintained the soldiers health in group of 2-4 houses. The effect is correct already.

And for the UU may I suggest Hakkapeliittas(replaces maybe Curaissier(spelling?)). They were Finnish cavalry who fought in the 30 years war. Their bonus could be some bonus that makes attacks more effective.

 

[IrishDragon]

The celts or ireland should be included. Possible victory condition to control ireland? or have no foreign control in ireland