Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Squirrelloid
- Start date
st.lucifer
King
(reviews notes) The operative idea was to replace corporations with monastic and military orders - the Templars, Hospitallers, Teutonic Knights; and any four of the Benedictines, Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits, and Cistercians.
proposed ideas for the military orders: (all competing with each other)
-Templars: barracks and stables give +15% gold (to represent the Templar's role in banking
-Hospitalers: free medic 1 promotion for all units built in the city, units heal an additional 10%/turn in cities w/Hospitalers
-Teutonic Order: free shock promotion for all mounted units, +1 xp from barracks or stables?
for monastic orders: nobody has currently proposed anything beyond their inclusion. I'd argue that all should give a science bonus, due to the importance of monasteries as institutions of higher learning in Medieval Europe, and they might then be specialized to give other bonuses as well - Jesuits give an espionage bonus, Franciscans a happiness bonus, Dominicans a gold% bonus, etc. I'd like other people's ideas on this.
Can we add both and drop Switzerland?
Can we add both and drop Switzerland?
Sounds good.
onedreamer
Dragon
A vassal still got a mechanic to be a civ ingame and makes more sense as one than being a province, though.
?
I didn't speak against the inclusion of Bulgaria, I spoke against the exclusion of Genoa in favor of Bulgaria. Because in fact, you proposed to include Bulgaria and Moravia (
) instead of "for example" Genoa and Sicily. Like I already said it's perfectly fine to propose civs as long as you give reasons that aren't "it was more important than Civ X", and that are even incorrect claims, or not backed up by some more informations. If you read the main thread about the mod you will see in one post (#125) I wrote to not underestimate the importance of eastern europe.onedreamer
Dragon
[Papal States]
I think it would be better to make them unplayable for 3 reasons:
1) Having some interesting game mechanic that most civs have to deal with and that would make the mod more interesting overall.
2) the UHV and gameplay in general would be inevitably boring, unless you go on a conquest path, quite unhistorical.
3) opens up a slot for other civs (since we're apparently short of).
[Genoa / Venice]
I'd rather have the first control Tuscany and the second North Italy than both North Italy.
[Independent Sicily]
Would inevitably make someone unhistorically too strong in the mediterranean (its strategical importance is huge on the map) once they conquer it. Unless Spain has big advantages in conquering it ?
[Netherlands and Burgundy]
I don't know what is Netherland's spawn date in 1050 based on (could someone explain ?), it should be the end of XVI century AFAIK... until that date it should be Burgundy's goal to control it (I'd include a bit more than one coastal tile in the UHV, in fact). If France succeeds in its UHV goal to control Bourgogne, the spawn of Netherlands will most likely make Burgundy collapse, quite historical
Making Netherlands spawn before, on the other hand, would probably make France's goal a bit too easy ?
It'd be a fun OCC if it was playable, and rather different game style from most of the other nations.
I think it would be better to make them unplayable for 3 reasons:
1) Having some interesting game mechanic that most civs have to deal with and that would make the mod more interesting overall.
2) the UHV and gameplay in general would be inevitably boring, unless you go on a conquest path, quite unhistorical.
3) opens up a slot for other civs (since we're apparently short of).
[Genoa / Venice]
I'd rather have the first control Tuscany and the second North Italy than both North Italy.
[Independent Sicily]
Would inevitably make someone unhistorically too strong in the mediterranean (its strategical importance is huge on the map) once they conquer it. Unless Spain has big advantages in conquering it ?
[Netherlands and Burgundy]
I don't know what is Netherland's spawn date in 1050 based on (could someone explain ?), it should be the end of XVI century AFAIK... until that date it should be Burgundy's goal to control it (I'd include a bit more than one coastal tile in the UHV, in fact). If France succeeds in its UHV goal to control Bourgogne, the spawn of Netherlands will most likely make Burgundy collapse, quite historical
Making Netherlands spawn before, on the other hand, would probably make France's goal a bit too easy ?
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
kicking around some ideas on the current civ list. I'm also coming to think Sweden is fractionally better deserving of a slot than Sicilydue to greater impact in the time period the Mod is planning to cover (since sicily is under the control of so many different states, it would be better as an independent).
Spoiler random ideas :
Still hoping you'll respond to my ideas on Iberia (post 55) Al Andalus and
the Caliphate of Cordoba are FAR more important than the Christian kingdoms up to about 1100. And Aragon should be included too, just as important as Castille. And Valencia as an independent. Don't you agree?
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Still hoping you'll respond to my ideas on Iberia (post 55) Al Andalus and
the Caliphate of Cordoba are FAR more important than the Christian kingdoms up to about 1100. And Aragon should be included too, just as important as Castille. And Valencia as an independent. Don't you agree?
Al Andalus is on the list and always has been, plus I proposed science and culture related UUs, literally exactly what you mentioned in the comments
.Aragons apogee was quite short, and although it was a med player it didn't really have super uniqueness or vast influence (though it should probably get the nod over Genoa).
Vassal, province, satrapy... basically the same thing. Genoa was never independent again...
?
I didn't speak against the inclusion of Bulgaria, I spoke against the exclusion of Genoa in favor of Bulgaria. Because in fact, you proposed to include Bulgaria and Moravia (
I was agreeing with an earlier post of yours where you commented to another poster that it seemed the list was already finalized and it wasn't going to change, even with other people providing ideas. I was with you on that. I was just mentioning that your point was proved, since you were the only one who challenged my civ ideas. Since then, there has been a lot more feedback on all points, which I'm happy about.
I also did give reasons why they might be included (posts 43 and 48). I was trying to ignite debate about other Eastern European civs I felt may be overloooked.
I am on your side here. Really. I feel I may have got off the wrong foot with you because I wrote that Bulgaria or Moravia were "more worthy" than Sicily and Genoa. I did apologize, since that wasn't my intention. It was merely to ignite debate and try to throw other ideas out.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Al Andalus is on the list and always has been, plus I proposed science and culture related UUs, literally exactly what you mentioned in the comments
Aragons apogee was quite short, and although it was a med player it didn't really have super uniqueness or vast influence (though it should probably get the nod over Genoa).
OK, Sorry I missed your proposals about U.U.s. You're probably right
about Aragon though it did impact on European history after 1300.
There seem to be two threads going on here. Maybe missed your post.
And in response to somebody's mention of Morocco and the Maghreb;
The original invasion of Iberia in 711 (8000 Berbers and 1500 Arab
horsemen) was led by Tarik (Governor of Tangier). Where he landed, west
of Algeciras is called Tarifa now and has given us the name for taxes as
"tariff" as it became the customs port for Andalusian trade with North Africa.
As far as I understand it, Cordoba held soveriegnty over the western part
of North Africa right up until the 1080's until the rise of the Almoravids.
The Cordoban Caliphate of course originated when local leaders of Al Andalus
invited an exiled prince of the overthrown Ummayad Caliphate to unite the
various emirates under a single ruler.
It became such a powerful Caliphate in its own right that it was totally independent from Baghdad or Cairo. It's importance in the period of 900-1050 cannot be overemphasied in culture, science, the arts etc. Its power and wealth, in my mind, made joint action by the Christian mini-states against it inevitable, as they were quite weak and impotent, militarily and economically.
One odd fact about the Caliphate is that it had no regular standing army.
It was so rich that it could hire all the mercenaries it needed, mostly Berbers
and Arab horsemen but many Christian professional soldiers too.(like El Cid?)
As anyone who has visited Cordoba recently will tell you, it must have been a remarkable city, at least in its "Golden Age". Sorry if i'm a bit of a geek
about this. But I've been a few times and just love the place.
BTW. What U.U's and U.B.s have you proposed?
As a U.B. I'd suggest the advanced irrigation methods as in the great waterwheels at Cordoba which provided full running water and sewage system for over a million people. Maybe like levees in BTS? The legacy of their irrigation is still evident today all over Southern Spain.
Hard to pick a military U.U. unless it's a special mercenary similiar to the
Christian maceman or crossbowman. But maybe a scientific one. Who knows?
As for it's Great Wonder, the Great Mosque (la Mesquita) completed in 956,
the 3rd most holy shrine in Islam at the time. (have you ever been in it?
It is breathtaking esp. when you remember that most of Europe
was still living in mud huts at the time)
Sorry for such a long post, everybody. Read or ignore at your leisure.
onedreamer
Dragon
Allright, sorry for not accepting your apology before, you didn't really need to, I sometimes sound too harsh on the forum, esp. because english is not my motherlanguage and sometimes I can't "refine" my sentences as well as I would like. Anyways, I don't agree that vassal is the same as province. For example, a province of a Monarchy can't be a Republic
I know that the italian minors are... minors, but rather than implementing them as independents, which would make them meaningless, I suggest to implement some mechanics to make them economically and culturally meaningful but not militarily powerful. Now it seems that even Aragon could be enlisted instead of Genoa. I'd agree with Aragòn if at least it took over a possible Sicily's candidation, but not Genoa. It seems that the only italian minor most players are interested in is the Papal State. A "civ" that in the M.A. did little more than trying to keep Europe in the Dark Ages, while from the minors around it came a significant technological and cultural contribution to humanity.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Allright, sorry for not accepting your apology before, you didn't really need to, I sometimes sound too harsh on the forum, esp. because english is not my motherlanguage and sometimes I can't "refine" my sentences as well as I would like. Anyways, I don't agree that vassal is the same as province. For example, a province of a Monarchy can't be a Republic
I know that the italian minors are... minors, but rather than implementing them as independents, which would make them meaningless, I suggest to implement some mechanics to make them economically and culturally meaningful but not militarily powerful. Now it seems that even Aragon could be enlisted instead of Genoa. I'd agree with Aragòn if at least it took over a possible Sicily's candidation, but not Genoa. It seems that the only italian minor most players are interested in is the Papal State. A "civ" that in the M.A. did little more than trying to keep Europe in the Dark Ages, while from the minors around it came a significant technological and cultural contribution to humanity.
Hope you didn't think I was promoting Aragon at the expense of Genoa.
I wasn't. I think Venice, Pisa and Genoa all have good claims as powerful
trading cities in their time. You also correctly point out the cultural importance of the Italian city-states in the Renaissance. So you are justified for suggesting all of these if they fit logically into the mod.
As something interested in Spain, I suggested Aragon as it was equally as
important ,with Castille, in the final unification of Spain in 1492.
I'm even more interested in making sure that Muslim Spain gets the full recognition in the game it deserves to. Cordoba, in it's day, was far more important and influential than any of the little Christian kingdoms in Spain, or in Europe as a whole.
In fact, many historians believe it played an important role in kick-starting the Renaissance in Italy by introducing Greek and Roman knowledge to Europe, previously banned by the Christian Church. The game should reflect this.
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Allright, sorry for not accepting your apology before, you didn't really need to, I sometimes sound too harsh on the forum, esp. because english is not my motherlanguage and sometimes I can't "refine" my sentences as well as I would like. Anyways, I don't agree that vassal is the same as province. For example, a province of a Monarchy can't be a Republic
I know that the italian minors are... minors, but rather than implementing them as independents, which would make them meaningless, I suggest to implement some mechanics to make them economically and culturally meaningful but not militarily powerful. Now it seems that even Aragon could be enlisted instead of Genoa. I'd agree with Aragòn if at least it took over a possible Sicily's candidation, but not Genoa. It seems that the only italian minor most players are interested in is the Papal State. A "civ" that in the M.A. did little more than trying to keep Europe in the Dark Ages, while from the minors around it came a significant technological and cultural contribution to humanity.
Personally I think a northern Italian playable civ should be in there, but Aragon, Venice and Genoa occupy very similar 'design space' as Mediterranean naval powers and having all three isn't the best in IMHO. I'd much prefer Aragon, Venice and a Tuscany/Milan style Civ (Possible UHVs: First to Renaissance, Produce 5 great artist specialists before 1400, unite Italy before 1850*).
As to the papal states Civ's are included due to the magnitude of their influence, not if it was positive or negative (see, Mongols
). I for one would be perfectly happy with them not being playable though.*Such a state could also have the UU of the Condottieri (Macemen with 30% Withdraw chance), UB of Basilica (or something else appropriate) Observatory that allows two artists specialists, UP The Power of Patronage: Specialists produce +1 Gold
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Personally I think a northern Italian playable civ should be in there, but Aragon, Venice and Genoa occupy very similar 'design space' as Mediterranean naval powers and having all three isn't the best in IMHO. I'd much prefer Aragon, Venice and a Tuscany/Milan style Civ (Possible UHVs: First to Renaissance, Produce 5 great artist specialists before 1400, unite Italy before 1850*).
As to the papal states Civ's are included due to the magnitude of their influence, not if it was positive or negative (see, Mongols
*Such a state could also have the UU of the Condottieri (Macemen with 30% Withdraw chance), UB of Basilica (or something else appropriate) Observatory that allows two artists specialists, UP The Power of Patronage: Specialists produce +1 Gold
Sorry to seem a nuisance, but you've asked for input and I've tried to do
that, in an area where I feel i could contribute. I've made suggestions, as
you've asked, and hoped that you might find the time to respond in some
detail. Too much to ask?
st.lucifer
King
OK, Sorry I missed your proposals about U.U.s. You're probably right
about Aragon though it did impact on European history after 1300.
There seem to be two threads going on here. Maybe missed your post.
And in response to somebody's mention of Morocco and the Maghreb;
The original invasion of Iberia in 711 (8000 Berbers and 1500 Arab
horsemen) was led by Tarik (Governor of Tangier). Where he landed, west
of Algeciras is called Tarifa now and has given us the name for taxes as
"tariff" as it became the customs port for Andalusian trade with North Africa.
As far as I understand it, Cordoba held soveriegnty over the western part
of North Africa right up until the 1080's until the rise of the Almoravids.
The Cordoban Caliphate of course originated when local leaders of Al Andalus
invited an exiled prince of the overthrown Ummayad Caliphate to unite the
various emirates under a single ruler.
It became such a powerful Caliphate in its own right that it was totally independent from Baghdad or Cairo. It's importance in the period of 900-1050 cannot be overemphasied in culture, science, the arts etc. Its power and wealth, in my mind, made joint action by the Christian mini-states against it inevitable, as they were quite weak and impotent, militarily and economically.
One odd fact about the Caliphate is that it had no regular standing army.
It was so rich that it could hire all the mercenaries it needed, mostly Berbers
and Arab horsemen but many Christian professional soldiers too.(like El Cid?)
As anyone who has visited Cordoba recently will tell you, it must have been a remarkable city, at least in its "Golden Age". Sorry if i'm a bit of a geek
about this. But I've been a few times and just love the place.
BTW. What U.U's and U.B.s have you proposed?
As a U.B. I'd suggest the advanced irrigation methods as in the great waterwheels at Cordoba which provided full running water and sewage system for over a million people. Maybe like levees in BTS? The legacy of their irrigation is still evident today all over Southern Spain.
Hard to pick a military U.U. unless it's a special mercenary similiar to the
Christian maceman or crossbowman. But maybe a scientific one. Who knows?
As for it's Great Wonder, the Great Mosque (la Mesquita) completed in 956,
the 3rd most holy shrine in Islam at the time. (have you ever been in it?
It is breathtaking esp. when you remember that most of Europe
was still living in mud huts at the time)
Sorry for such a long post, everybody. Read or ignore at your leisure.
To respond in more detail to your post (as nobody is officially 'in charge' here - various people have taken the lead at different times) - I'd personally be more comfortable with a tarifa-based UB (some empowerment of the customs house - maybe 2 additional trade routes, or 25% gold) than with a substitute levee, given how powerful the levee is and how long the Andalus/Maghreb civ is likely to be around. It might also be practical to make the UB a combination customs house/courthouse - perhaps the customs house could provide -25% maintenance, as the distance between cities in the Maghreb is likely to be considerable. I'm planning on making the area a little less city-friendly on the map; this might also help to offset that a bit.
For a UU, Moorish Cavalry (a slightly heavier knight) might work. As there are no scientific units or nation-specific wonders, that suggestion seems sort of out of place; it might be worth considering the Mosque of Cordoba as a WW, but I can't think of a specific purpose for it, and the list of potential WWs is going to be large.
We're not denying the importance of the Cordoban caliphate - that's why we're making it independent from Baghdad and Cairo. But we're not building the mod specifically around any one civ - balance requires us to look at everything.
Thanks for the input, and please keep offering ideas.
st.lucifer
King
Read the thread, check the timeline, etc.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Thanks for answering. Just a couple of quick thoughts on your suggestions.
The irrigation thing might seem overpowered but the system played a
huge role ensuring agricultural surpluses/wealth. The customs house idea
is good too as a U.B, though. One or the other, I guess.
The U.U. could be a fast Berber light cavalryman (extra move over all
terrain?) or a Christian mercenary sergeant/crossbowmen maybe.
I think that the Great Mosque should be included, for it's importance to
Islam, esp. in the West, as a place of pilgrimage, and science.
Note your comments about the Maghreb. Very few key cities except in
northern Morocco. Totally different to Andalusia where there were lots of
cities, supported by huge agricultural surpluses, as I've mentioned.
Thanks again for your comments. Just trying to help.
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Response in the other thread, since this one is about Civs
Can we add both and drop Switzerland?
But Switzerland is cool
.onedreamer
Dragon
But Genoa's and Venice influence in the Meditteranean continued far longer than Aragon's, since the latter joined Castilla into Spain.
As to the papal states Civ's are included due to the magnitude of their influence, not if it was positive or negative (see, Mongols
I don't see the Mongols having this great influence over Europe overall. I wasn't speaking of Papal States being positive or negative, I was saying that it gave almost no contribution in most popular values, and the effective power of its influence depended upon the other civs, this can be implemented by a game mechanism (like the apostolic palace in BtS), as I've been saying from the beginning. This would make much more sense because in game terms, a single city civ will never be "influential", unless it goes on conquering, which shouldn't be what we aim for the Papal States.
Condottiere means leader, precisely they were leaders of mercenary armies used by the italian Republics. They didn't have the manpower of Empires, but they had more funds to dedicate to paying mercenary armies. This concept is already in RFC, what I think we should do is make the Republics economically strong (as suggested in the previous post), plus maybe Venice's UP could be the same of Carthaginian in RFC, although I like your proposed Patronage UP for the economic benefits, but it really fits more Tuscany/Milan than Venice/Genoa. Tuscany/Milan makes sense as a civ, though a colonization race in the mediterranean between Venice and Genoa would have been interesting, although I suppose it can be between Venice and Aragon, but the latter doesn't strike as a long lasting civ, historically speaking.
edit: Genoa and Venice could have additional commerce/gold from trade routes and/or controlled/traded resources.
onedreamer
Dragon
/Sarcasm on
I hope none will open a new thread because Squirrelloid hasn't been posting for 15 days now, although he would have done it...
/Sarcasm off
While I think Democracy is cool, there should be someone or some way to collect ideas and take decisions or the project won't go anywhere.
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