Ribbentrop-Beck Pact - should Poland ally with III Reich

[Veles]

Lithuanians weren't actually Lithuanians, they were Russians! Well, no, they weren't Lithuanians or Russians, they were in fact some other group of Slavs that conveniently allied with the Poles against the actual Lithuanians!

And in support of our views, we have simplified maps of linguistic distribution from several centuries after the time period we're talking about that, in addition to actual research into what actual people spoke in certain places at that time, incorporate a significant amount of guesswork and personal prejudice!

One very solid argument would be Statues of Lithuania, the principle legal document of the country, that wasn't even written in Latin or Lithuanian, but only in Old Belarussian (as opposed to Modern Belarussian, which is a completely made up language), which was a local dialect of Russian.

Spoiler :

And here is a list of soldiers of the Grand Duchy of Litva (Lithuanian army register) from 1528 (in Russian):

You can see that most of the surnames are of Ruthenian/Polish (Slavic) origin.

It's in Belarussian. Interesting. Most of those lastnames are still very common in Russia.

It's interesting how history worked out. The Samogitians gained a history they never truly had, and the Belorussians somehow lost the history they had. And Lukashenko is keen on ridding them of the last few symbols from the era like the Pahonia and the white, red, white Litvin flag.

Halp! Jmud' be stealing our history.

In taberna quando sumus, Belarussian style:


Link to video.

 

[TheLastOne36]

One very solid argument would be Statues of Lithuania, the principle legal document of the country, that wasn't even written in Latin or Lithuanian, but only in Old Belarussian (as opposed to Modern Belarussian, which is a completely made up language), which was a local dialect of Russian.

What? Old-Belarussian is the ancestor of modern Belarussian.

Halp! Jmud' be stealing our history.

As much as you wish it were true, modern Belarussians and Ukrainians are not Russians.

In taberna quando sumus, Belarussian style:


Link to video.

Love that band.


Link to video.

 

[Veles]

As much as you wish it were true, modern Belarussians and Ukrainians are not Russians.

They may not be Rosiyane, but they are Russkiye. Tell a Belarussian he's not Russkiy - he'll get offended. And Ukrainian nutjobs actually say that Russians aren't Russkiye, but they stole thier name from Ukrainians, which are true Russians

It's complicated

 

[Domen]

Tell a Belarussian he's not Russkiy - he'll get offended.

I will tell him that he is a good, White Russkiy - as opposed to those Black, Czorny "Satans" from Moscow.

Of course I'm joking, you are not bad, Muscovite Russkies.

But many White Russkies apparently don't like the "only real" Russkies from Moscow (you can tell by the music changes in this video):


Link to video.

but they stole thier name from Ukrainians, which are true Russians

I would rather say that Russians - as well as all other Slavs - are true Ukrainians, because Slavic people originated from territories of modern Ukraine.

According to one theory, at least. According to another theory Slavic people came from the area around the Caspian Sea.

It's interesting how history worked out. The Samogitians gained a history they never truly had, and the Belorussians somehow lost the history they had. And Lukashenko is keen on ridding them of the last few symbols from the era like the Pahonia and the white, red, white Litvin flag.

Yeah - it is sad indeed.

And few people also remember, that Belarussians was the nation which suffered the highest civilian casualties in terms of percentage of total population during WW2 (apart from Jews). Belarus has somehow been deprived of its history and today most people associate Belarus only with Lukashenko's regime.

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And here something about Belarussian soldiers who fought on the Polish side during the Polish-Bolshevik war in 1920:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Bułak-Bałachowicz#Polish-Bolshevik_War

 

[Domen]

But ending that Off-Topic and coming back to the essence of this thread.

Here is a discussion with author of the "Pact Ribbentrop-Beck" book - Piotr Zychowicz, as well as another historian, Sławomir Cenckiewicz:


Link to video.

I have currently no time to translate all of this to English, though.

 

[red_elk]

The integration process between Belorussia and Russia is kind of revived last few years.
Hope it will continue, we are very close culturally.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

The integration process between Belorussia and Russia is kind of revived last few years.
Hope it will continue, we are very close culturally.

I thought that Belorussia's prez was still super pissed off at Russia and was pulling out of CSTO and Commonwealth stuff.

 

[Domen]

The integration process between Belorussia and Russia is kind of revived last few years.
Hope it will continue, we are very close culturally.

Any integration under Lukashenko's regime is not integration, but forced Russification.

You may start talking about integration when both Belarus and Russia become democratic countries.

============================================

BTW - before Poland joined the European Union, people were allowed to decide in a referendum.

Will Belarussian people be allowed to decide whether to join that Eurasian Union or not in a similar referendum?

 

[del62]

I would rather say that Russians - as well as all other Slavs - are true Ukrainians, because Slavic people originated from territories of modern Ukraine.

I have heard that the Rus were descendents of Norsemen.

 

[Domen]

I have heard that the Rus were descendents of Norsemen.

Or maybe of the Mongols ???

 

[del62]

I think there was significant Viking settlements in what is now Russia, just like in much of the UK and Normandy.

I watched a TV program on the Vikings that followed the trail, I think Rus comes from an old Scandanavian term the men that row,

The Rus People

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

Or maybe of the Mongols ???

Is this a joke, troll, or are you being serious

Russians aren't descendents of any one group. Russian ethnicity and culture comes from their lands being a crossroads for Northern European, Central European, Eastern Mediterranean, and Eurasian peoples and cultures and all that good stuff.

 

[red_elk]

I thought that Belorussia's prez was still super pissed off at Russia and was pulling out of CSTO and Commonwealth stuff.

I wouldn't say so, the relations are pretty good now. We already formed customs union with Belorussia and Kazakhstan and now moving towards unification of currency.
Edit: Air defenses and some other military structures are also unified, or soon will be.

You may start talking about integration when both Belarus and Russia become democratic countries.

Thank you for your opinion. We will also give our recommendations to Poland about what kind of alliances and organizations it is allowed to participate.

Will Belarussian people be allowed to decide whether to join that Eurasian Union or not in a similar referendum?

Don't worry about that. 84% of Belorussians voted for preservation of the USSR in 1991 - more than Russians did.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

@Red_Elk: As a Russian, do you see CSTO as dead in the water? It looks to me like they don't do anything and none of the member countries care about it that much.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I have heard that the Rus were descendents of Norsemen.

The Rurik dynasty was certainly descendent of Norsemen, along with the Varangians.

The state does not reflect the people most of the time however, and I'd be surprised if most Rus' peasants were not of Slavic origin.

=====================

Belarussians voted in support of Lukashenko's referendum, so I don't really have any hope for them.

My Belorussian friend says however that there is a small but vocal "Litvin", as he calls it, minority who wants to depose Lukashenko, reestablish the Pahonia and white-red-white flag as national symbols, and have closer ties with the west. I don't know how much of a role that group actually has in Belarussian politics though.

 

[Dachs]

The state does not reflect the people most of the time however, and I'd be surprised if most Rus' peasants were not of Slavic origin.

I believe you mean "I'd be surprised if most Rus' peasants did not speak a Slavic language".

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

The Rurik dynasty was certainly descendent of Norsemen, along with the Varangians.

Varangians was a Greek name for Norsemen, but the Varangian Guard also had a lot of Anglo-Saxons and Northern French. And Jutes, we can't forget about the Jutes!

 

[red_elk]

@Red_Elk: As a Russian, do you see CSTO as dead in the water? It looks to me like they don't do anything and none of the member countries care about it that much.

In my opinion, it's more or less true for CIS, but not so much for CSTO. The main thing to consider here is Armenia, it cannot participate in Customs and Eurasian Union integration, but it's still very important ally of Russia in Caucasus. On the other hand, this organization in its current form is more a diplomatic, rather than military tool. It can be used by Russia to spread its influence, and by its other members to prevent external aggression (for example, Serbian or Iraq scenario in Belorussia)

 

[TheLastOne36]

I believe you mean "I'd be surprised if most Rus' peasants did not speak a Slavic language".

Of course.

Varangians was a Greek name for Norsemen, but the Varangian Guard also had a lot of Anglo-Saxons and Northern French. And Jutes, we can't forget about the Jutes!

You are entirely correct.

While translating articles on Wikipedia from their Russian versions, I've discovered that lots of Rurik knyaz(/princes) married English(and by that I mean Anglo-Saxon) brides.

Some even were fairly significant in origin, like the daughter of one of the Earls of Wessex. (Whom I believe was also the mother of Mstislav of Kiev.)

 

[Lord Baal]

I'm going to write a terrible popular history book about how Russia was the the first English colony, based on what I've learnt on this last page.