Ribbentrop-Beck Pact - should Poland ally with III Reich

[ParkCungHee]

Genetic evidence proves it.

 

[r16]

if ı may ...

the Russians knew they would one day fight the Nazi Germany , nothing original in that . Nor in the one that Berlin had it in its fibers to fight Communism to the bitter end . What made sense in 1941 was though that the fact that the British would bring in the US . It made real sense to Stalin that he and Hitler could remain allies until the Americans were beaten back . Although he didn't have a burning desire to kill Americans ; if he could assure their co-operation against the Germans ... Yeah , the times were bad . Which explains the Russian surprise on June 22 . They had long taken the German concentration as a warning against them , just like they had concentrated for an immediate attack against Germans . Stalin had granted permission for a few divisions worth of German troops to pass through their territory to force us one way or the other into war ; this is a r16 thing - don't expect for links or stuff . He was ready to be lenient in our carving , he would allow Hitler bite more , would even let the Straits - for a while . The timing was particularly bad for Russians , they figured out that there were no heavy Panzers and they didn't need to grasp the initiative immediately , they were pulling the troops back and it denuded the deployed units from the support they might used gainfully .

a Polish-German Alliance would evaporated the hopes for anti-Amerika co-operation and Russians would have been in trenches 100 kilometers from the border with thousands of T-34s with "longer" guns in reserve , waiting to hit back at the Panzers . Smolensk would have matched the Stalingrad and that would have been all .

 

[Veles]

While translating articles on Wikipedia from their Russian versions, I've discovered that lots of Rurik knyaz(/princes) married English(and by that I mean Anglo-Saxon) brides.

Some even were fairly significant in origin, like the daughter of one of the Earls of Wessex. (Whom I believe was also the mother of Mstislav of Kiev.)

One small example.

Yaroslav the Wise (1019–1054) was married to Irene (Ingegerd) the daughter of Olof Skötkonung, the King of Sweden. Her dowry was Ingermanland, where St. Petersburg will be established 700 years after. His daughters were:

1) Agatha, who married Edward the Exile, and was the mother of Edgar Ætheling and St. Margaret of Scotland;
2) Anastasia of Kiev, who married Andrew I, the King of Hungary;
3) Elizabeth of Kiev, whose hand was ultimately won by Harald III Hardrada, the future King of Norway (yes, that one, that was defeated in 1066) during his service at the court of Yaroslav.
4) And, most notably, Anne of Kiev, who married Henry I of France, and was briefly a regent of France, during his son Philip I childhood. By the way, she introduced the Eastern Orthodox name Philip into the Western tradition and many Spanish and French kings had that name later. The islands of Phillipines get thier name from Spanish king bearing that name. Strange how things are connected in history. One legend associated with her, is that she took with her from Kiev a gospel written in Cyrillic and Glagolitic script, which after her death the French took for some mysterions ancient language and lately it was used in ceremonial stuff and was known as Reims Gospel. Henry III of France and several of his successors including Louis XIV took their oath on it.

So Rus' was very firmly integrated into European affairs back then.

 

[del62]

Harald III Hardrada[/URL], the future King of Norway (yes, that one, that was defeated at Hastings) during his service at the court of Yaroslav.

Actually it was Stamford Bridge hew was defeted at, by the other Harold (Goodwin) who was then defeated at Hastings

 

[Veles]

Thanks, corrected.

 

[Domen]

Is this a joke, troll, or are you being serious

Russians aren't descendents of any one group. Russian ethnicity and culture comes from their lands being a crossroads for Northern European, Central European, Eastern Mediterranean, and Eurasian peoples and cultures and all that good stuff.

I was exactly as serious as that guy who claimed that Russians descend from the Norsemen.

 

[sophie]

One small example.

Yaroslav the Wise (1019–1054) was married to Irene (Ingegerd) the daughter of Olof Skötkonung, the King of Sweden. Her dowry was Ingermanland, where St. Petersburg will be established 700 years after. His daughters were:

1) Agatha, who married Edward the Exile, and was the mother of Edgar Ætheling and St. Margaret of Scotland;
2) Anastasia of Kiev, who married Andrew I, the King of Hungary;
3) Elizabeth of Kiev, whose hand was ultimately won by Harald III Hardrada, the future King of Norway (yes, that one, that was defeated in 1066) during his service at the court of Yaroslav.
4) And, most notably, Anne of Kiev, who married Henry I of France, and was briefly a regent of France, during his son Philip I childhood. By the way, she introduced the Eastern Orthodox name Philip into the Western tradition and many Spanish and French kings had that name later. The islands of Phillipines get thier name from Spanish king bearing that name. Strange how things are connected in history. One legend associated with her, is that she took with her from Kiev a gospel written in Cyrillic and Glagolitic script, which after her death the French took for some mysterions ancient language and lately it was used in ceremonial stuff and was known as Reims Gospel. Henry III of France and several of his successors including Louis XIV took their oath on it.

So Rus' was very firmly integrated into European affairs back then.

It seems like every Russian/Kievan/Ukrainian historian I meet/see/hear mentions this.

 

[dutchfire]

Actually it was Stamford Bridge hew was defeted at,

That can happen to the best of teams, their defensive play is hard to break.

 

[del62]

That can happen to the best of teams, their defensive play is hard to break.

Not under Villas-Boas

 

[Domen]

While translating articles on Wikipedia from their Russian versions, I've discovered that lots of Rurik knyaz(/princes) married English(and by that I mean Anglo-Saxon) brides.

And lot's of Polish Piast dynasty princesses married English & Scandinavian grooms.

For example Swietoslawa, daughter of Mieszko I and Dobrawa - was a queen of Sweden, Denmark and Norway and wife of Erik Segersäll.

Dobrawa was Czech, by the way.

International marriages of the rulling classes was nothing unusual.

So Rus' was very firmly integrated into European affairs back then.

Not really - because the British Isles and Scandinavia were the backwaters of European affairs back then.

Actually Rus itself was much more important at that time.

 

[TheLastOne36]

And lot's of Polish Piast dynasty princesses married English & Scandinavian grooms.

For example Swietoslawa, daughter of Mieszko I and Dobrawa - was a queen of Sweden, Denmark and Norway and wife of Erik Segersäll.

Mother of Canute the Great!

Actually Rus itself was much more important at that time.

Definitely. The trade routes that went through the Rus' were very important to Europe at the time.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

Not really - because the British Isles and Scandinavia were the backwaters of European affairs back then.

Actually Rus itself was much more important at that time.

How? Yes events in Scandinavia had little effect on Europe at that time, but Scandinavians themselves were having a direct impact on Europe.

But as for Anglo-Saxon England, it was by no means a backwater. Even with the instability throughout the Norse period, they were insanely wealthy. If England was apart of the Carolingian Empire it would have easily been the richest province. What gave Anglo-Saxon England their importance was that they sat at the confluence of Northern Europe and Western Europe. The Saxon kingdoms had always had strong connections to the Frankish kingdom to their south through trade, marriages, and exchanges. Educated Saxon clergy could be found throughout Western Europe, as could Saxon workmanship.

As a part of the Northern European world, they were ridiculously important. Access to or control of English trade, land, manpower was what made or broke Scandinavian kings. English political influence extended through trade and marriage throughout all of Northern Europe. The Rus themselves were not that important at all, it was the trade routes that moved through their lands that were. England was the last major stop on for the trade routes from the East through what is now Russia. However, the Rus trading lanes were not incredibly vial for ALL of Europe. Frankia, Italy, and Spain didn’t get their Eastern good from the Rus and neither did most of Germany. The Rus trading lanes were important for Northern Europe.

However, what we define as a backwater is an arbitrary definition anyway. Depending on your point of view everybody but the Byzantines were a backwater, or everybody but Byzantine and Italy, or Byzantine, Italy, and Frankia, or the HRE. Do you see what I mean? If any place was a backwater, it was Central Europe.

 

[TheLastOne36]

If by backwater you mean not relevant to the politics of the rest of Europe, then I suppose you can call Central Europe a backwater as well.

 

[Domen]

The Rus trading lanes were important for Northern Europe.

The Rus had strong links with the Byzantine Empire at that time. And the Byzantine Empire was extremely relevant.

If by backwater you mean not relevant to the politics of the rest of Europe, then I suppose you can call Central Europe a backwater as well.

But Central Europe was relevant to the politics of the rest of Europe at that time.

For example for the Holy Roman Emperor Otto III the most relevant parts of Europe were Germany, France, Italy and Western Slavs (Poland mainly).

However, what we define as a backwater is an arbitrary definition anyway. Depending on your point of view everybody but the Byzantines were a backwater, or everybody but Byzantine and Italy, or Byzantine, Italy, and Frankia, or the HRE. Do you see what I mean? If any place was a backwater, it was Central Europe.

Central Europe was the Holy Roman Empire - not a backwater for sure.

Poland was also not a backwater in 11th century, even though it was a very young state.

But Poland in its early period was more important for the rest of Europe in political terms than later.

During times of Boleslaw Chrobry Poland was involved in some major European political matters.

The Rus themselves were not that important at all, it was the trade routes that moved through their lands that were.

The Rus before fragmentation was extremely important. And by the way you seem to be contradicting yourself - you said that England was important because of its trade and wealth, then you say that Rus indeed had important trade and was wealthy, but was not important itself (unlike England).

Rus before the Mongol invasion was extremely wealthy - for sure more wealthy than late Anglo-Saxon England.

The biggest Anglo-Saxon city (London, I guess) was still a micro-town compared to Kiev and some other major urban centers of 11th century Rus.

Before the Mongol invasion Kiev had over 50,000 inhabitants - a few (if any) cities in Western Europe could match it at that time.

However - Kiev was completely devastated and population was slaughtered by the Mongols. City never recovered to its former glory.

However, what we define as a backwater is an arbitrary definition anyway.

True. I think this entire argument is thus unnecessary.

Especially that one place can be a "backwater" in some aspects, but a "place of major importance" in some other aspects.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Depends what you mean by Central Europe and what time frame we are talking about of course.

While the HRE and Bohemia were certainly important, I don't think Poland, Austria or Hungary were that relevant from 1050-1300. (there I go making arbitrary dates )

The most relevant thing that happened in that period were the Mongol invasions which the rest of Europe ignored.

 

[Domen]

While the HRE and Bohemia were certainly important, I don't think Poland, Austria or Hungary were that relevant from 1050-1300.

Well certainly Poland and Hungary were relevant for HRE and Bohemia in that time period.

Poland had both periods of being relevant (like 1107 - 1138) and less relevant during that period. Bohemia wasn't really relevant before the 2nd half of 13th century IMO. The Golden Age of Medieval Bohemia was from ca. 1250 to mid-15th century (the Premyslid dynasty and then the Luxembourg dynasty).

The most relevant thing that happened in that period were the Mongol invasions which the rest of Europe ignored.

I think there was panic and fear of the Mongols "from Hell" in entire Europe. The not-affected part of Europe simply forgot it later.

 

[King Kalmah]

Depends what you mean by Central Europe and what time frame we are talking about of course.

While the HRE and Bohemia were certainly important, I don't think Poland, Austria or Hungary were that relevant from 1050-1300. (there I go making arbitrary dates )

The most relevant thing that happened in that period were the Mongol invasions which the rest of Europe ignored.

Just look for magyar and what year it was

http://www.san.beck.org/AB-Chronology750-1300.html


EDIT...
We invaded Germany so many times back in the day and since Hitler and Himmler were such historians I'm surprised they didn't punish Hungary instead of Poland........

 

[Lord Baal]

Just look for magyar and what year it was

http://www.san.beck.org/AB-Chronology750-1300.html


EDIT...
We invaded Germany so many times back in the day and since Hitler and Himmler were such historians I'm surprised they didn't punish Hungary instead of Poland........

Why punish your most useful allies?

 

[King Kalmah]

Why punish your most useful allies?

I guess I was thinking more about Himmler since he had a fetish for Henry the Fowler and Hungary was always fighting with him....

Hitler needed all the allies he could get....

 

[Lord Baal]

I guess I was thinking more about Himmler since he had a fetish for Henry the Fowler and Hungary was always fighting with him....

Hitler needed all the allies he could get....

And Himmler was his subordinate. Therein lies your trouble.