Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
My puzzlement is more at the idea that borders can be "natural" to begin with. Borders exist between polities, and polities are wholly unnatural.
Ribbentrop-Beck Pact - should Poland ally with III Reich
- Thread starter Domen
- Start date
That's the point, for them to stop being arbitrary and depending on the current polity's ambitions. Polities' boundaries in our example should coincide with natural borders, namely Vistula/Dniepr watershed and be universally recognized as such.
Long live the Great Slavic Union and a wall with 1 km. height between eternal friends Poland and Russia.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
How is that any less arbitrary?
Veles was talking about Great Slavic Union, including Poland, Russia and a big wall between them.
Sure, but would you say that the Duchy of Hanover was part of the Kingdom of Great Britain?
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
TheLastOne36
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2007
- Messages
- 14,045
Hmm, that first map showing the Odra basin suggests Poland should annex Czech Silesia. 
Brest was actually founded by Poles btw, before Principality of Volhynia took the area over.
Anywho, that isn't the point. We know full well that those lands were originally East Slavic. It does not change the fact that millions of Poles lived there during the Rzeczpospolita and Second Republic, outnumbering Belorussians and Ukrainians. (Lithuanians weren't even relevant as far as population figures went)
@Domen, yay or nay to Krolewiec? We could use another major Baltic port if we want the rest of Europe to take us seriously.
Brest was actually founded by Poles btw, before Principality of Volhynia took the area over.
Anywho, that isn't the point. We know full well that those lands were originally East Slavic. It does not change the fact that millions of Poles lived there during the Rzeczpospolita and Second Republic, outnumbering Belorussians and Ukrainians. (Lithuanians weren't even relevant as far as population figures went)
@Domen, yay or nay to Krolewiec? We could use another major Baltic port if we want the rest of Europe to take us seriously.
Hmm, that first map showing the Odra basin suggests Poland should annex Czech Silesia.
And Wagria as well with the rest of West Odra basin. Well, that's up to you. Just don't screw things up.
That certainly can't be true. A whole massive of peasants weren't Poles and they were a majority. The majority of the dwellers of some cites could have been Polish, but surely Poles could have never been the overwhelming majority. And millions? Well a couple of million, maybe.
@Domen, yay or nay to Krolewiec? We could use another major Baltic port if we want the rest of Europe to take us seriously.
Well, any name is better than Kaliningrad. Krolevets doesn't sound that bad.
I even managed to find a photo of that big wall between them:
That's simply creepy, brah. This reminded me of a Slavic burial song.
Link to video.
Depressing as feck -.-
That's up to another eternal friends of Poland and members of our great union.
TheLastOne36
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2007
- Messages
- 14,045
The area around Brest, Lwow, Tarnopol, Grodno, Kaunas and Vilnius were peasants who were Polish speaking.
All those cities plus Luck had Polish majorities, aside from Grodno which was Jewish majority. Jews more often than not made the second biggest group in cities after Poles instead of Belorussians and Ukrainians.
Belorussians made up the majority in cities immediately to the east, in Navagradak, Pinsk, Minsk, Turov, Lida, Borisov, and Slutsk. Likewise with Ukrainians in Rivne and Stanislawow.
No, but that's not an equivalent statement. If the original claim had been that Holstein had been part of "the Kingdom of Denmark", then yes, it would have obviously been wrong. But TLO just said "Denmark", which can reasonably be said to represent the totality of lands under the control of the forces and government of the monarch in charge of Denmark. That's a generally accepted usage. Nobody says that Bohemia or Hungary or Lombardy wasn't part of "Austria", or that Finland wasn't part of "Russia", or that Bremen-Verden and Pomerania weren't part of "Sweden".
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
True. Just to mention that Lithuanian language was very close to extinction by 19th century, and survived as a spoken language mainly in the remote region of Samogitia - until the rise of Lithuanian / Samogitian nationalism in late 19th century - which is called "Lithuanian (or Samogitian) National Revival":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_National_Revival
By the way, the Polonization of the Grand Duchy of Litva was started already before the Union of Krewo from 1385 by Lithuanians themselves !!! - in 13th & 14th centuries when Pagan Lithuanians started to settle Polish peasants captured during their raids against Poland in their lands.
For example during the Lithuanian raid against Polish Land of Leczyca organized in year 1277 Lithuanians were said to enslave around 40,000 peasants from Polish territories, who were then settled in Lithuanian territory. This is a very considerable number compared to total population of Litva from that time - and especially compared to ethnic Lithuanian population (Grand Duchy of Litva was a very sparsely populated territory compared to most of Poland).
And there were in total over 40 Lithuanian raids against Poland in period 1210 - 1325 (year 1325 = marriage of Casimir the Great with princess Aldona).
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
And here is a list of soldiers of the Grand Duchy of Litva (Lithuanian army register) from 1528 (in Russian):
http://www.kdkv.narod.ru/1528-VKL/index.htm
You can see that most of the surnames are of Ruthenian/Polish (Slavic) origin.
http://www.kdkv.narod.ru/1528-VKL/index.htm
You can see that most of the surnames are of Ruthenian/Polish (Slavic) origin.
TheLastOne36
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2007
- Messages
- 14,045
It's interesting how history worked out. The Samogitians gained a history they never truly had, and the Belorussians somehow lost the history they had. And Lukashenko is keen on ridding them of the last few symbols from the era like the Pahonia and the white, red, white Litvin flag. 
Similar threads
