RifE 1.20 Bug Thread

[Vermicious Knid]

You used a very important word there: a stack of warriors. The first (and thankfully only) Hill Giant I've encountered killed me on turn 16. There are no stacks on turn 16. If you're lucky and haven't run into anything else, you might have a second warrior.

That is unfortunate...but nerfing the game to the extent that it is impossible to suffer an early defeat due to bad luck is not a design goal. There are a ton of ways to go down before turn 20...AI pops a lair full of monsters near you, you pop a bad lair yourself, multiple stacks of orcs spawn uncomfortably close, etc... "I started too close to a Giant Steading" is just a particularly dramatic way to go.

 

[Valkrionn]

RifE 1.12. Things I noticed, not all bugs:

1) Mother Enningas built a Wild Troll which went feral the turn she built it and thus destroyed her city, her stack in it, and her Civ. Shouldn’t it have been the displacee instead?
2) Tigers move 1, Lions 2. This is backwards from everybody else. Intentionally?
3) As many as 7 CtDs while loading a save, as many as 4 between turns (though it does work more often than not). As mentioned above, it has Jotnar.
4) Animals mostly aren’t guarding their lairs, so the flaming D’Teshi Scouts are going ‘round destroying them.
5) Speaking of The D’Teshtable Ones, maybe you could make them visible after they do something? As it stands, they are nearly impossible to defend against until mid-game or so - (Perfect Sight or Field Survey III or Empyrean priests or Dies Diei or ??) - and now they’re the only ones that can operate freely in the wildlands. C’mon, wouldn’t there be something that could at least smell the nasty poisonous burnt little boggarts?
-Although, in this game, at around turn 150, I saw a level-6 Giant Lizard next to their Pop-2 city (ah, Schadenfreude), so at least with this AI they’re more annoying than threatening.
6) Somewhere to my South I have a Treasure Chest. I don’t see it on the map or on F5, but it sure shows up on F2 - it’s been bleeding me for 80 turns. As soon as my Hippogriff heals I’ll have something with a shot at taking it out. Anyway, what bugs me (besides being unable to go get it for so long) is paying supply and maintenance on something that clearly needs neither.
7) The Guardians didn’t show up again, though I saw it once on another map (All Unique Features on). If it needs a special arrangement of mountains, or if the chokepoints are all getting filled with Goblin Forts instead, maybe it could just fill in the appropriate peaks itself?
8) I have no idea how I managed to convince myself earlier that Dwarven Mines could be placed 2 squares apart. I can see why I thought it was supposed to be that way, but not why I thought it could be done. So, sorry if I led you astray earlier. That said, can I talk you into rephrasing the description? “Requires 2 Tiles from another Dwarven Mine” maybe could be “Must be 3+ Tiles from other DMs” or perhaps “Requires 2 intervening Tiles from other DMs”.
9) I was attacked by a Hill Giant (from a Giant Steading) almost immediately. I was lucky and it was dumb (attacking a hill city across a river), but they shouldn’t invade so early. I also got 3 Hippogriffs before I could build anything stronger than Warriors to defend my Workers. Again, we shouldn’t be getting raiders - particularly ones that come from outside our sight range - before we can make (and afford) defenders strong enough to take them. Um, and maybe we could get them when we can handle them? -At turn 180, I haven’t had any invaders since those 4 units. (Of course, I am actively looking for Hamster Wheel motors.)
10) My take on the animals question: I think there should be nasties everywhere - sea and land - from the start of the game and the farther away the nastier. If the leash thing doesn’t bog down CPU too much, maybe you could keep them there but make them more restive as Civs encroach on their range. That’s just the Animals. I’d say make the Savages and Demons increase in strength as the Tech level goes up. It sort of does that now, only too slowly to make any real impact on my games; I’d rather it followed more closely.
11) I gave Mother E some Fyrds in the WB -- she’s using them as garrisons. Sigh.
12) No Gorilla-like animals through turn 180 any time I checked in the WB - though we had quite a lot of free jungle early on this continent and still have the whole New World to spawn in. Maybe make Yetis/Abominables/Bigfeet in mountains/snow/forest so we can get something?

1. I'll look at trying to fix that... The one going barb should ALWAYS be the one displaced.
2. As Vermicious said, Tigers are stealthy. Move a bit slower.
3. Trying to find this one.
4. Will look at this... Not sure how I could have changed this behavior, but apparently we did.
5. I keep meaning to do this... Planning to make them invisible, until they make some kind of action. At which point they are visible for a few turns.
6. I can give treasure chests the 'no supply' promo. Not sure why the popup telling you it's there isn't working.
7. Will look at this.
8. Ah. Makes sense. Personally, when I count tiles it's always the tiles BETWEEN improvements, never counting the improvement itself... All of the spacing requirements work that way. I can change the text key to the second phrasing.
9. Personally, I don't think those units are so bad early. With two warriors I held off 2 hillgiants, in a hill city.
10. Agreed.
11. Should be possible to change.
12. As mentioned, they SHOULD be in forests.

You used a very important word there: a stack of warriors. The first (and thankfully only) Hill Giant I've encountered killed me on turn 16. There are no stacks on turn 16. If you're lucky and haven't run into anything else, you might have a second warrior.

Like I said, I generally have been able to hold off the hill giants with two warriors. Just make damn sure to settle on a hill.

 

[Sarisin]

That is unfortunate...but nerfing the game to the extent that it is impossible to suffer an early defeat due to bad luck is not a design goal. There are a ton of ways to go down before turn 20...AI pops a lair full of monsters near you, you pop a bad lair yourself, multiple stacks of orcs spawn uncomfortably close, etc... "I started too close to a Giant Steading" is just a particularly dramatic way to go.

This is true, but there should be some sort of adjustment made according to the game speed you are playing. For example, if you happen to be playing on Marathon speed, you cannot build a unit for 30-50 turns. That's a long time to sweat out if nasties are spawning and popping out of lairs early in the game.

Yes, you can just leave both your starting units at home to defend or just explore very close to home, but that ruins the fun of early game exploration. BTW, I've noticed some AI civs like the Elves always send out both of their Scouts to explore while their first Warrior is being built. They are easy pickin's to wipe out of the game if you happen to be close to them.

This has come up before in FFH with when Orthus shows up and the main barbs spawn. I'm pretty sure it was delayed if you play at the slower speeds. I don't know if this is tough to program, but game speed does make a difference on being able to deal with early threats. Also, as usual, the human player can normally deal with this better than the AI and I've noticed AI civs going down rather quickly in 1.12.

 

[Sarisin]

It seems like Treasure Chests have been nerfed in 1.12.

I was lucky enough to get three in my last game. Results:

1. Empty

2. Empty

3. 64 Gold and a Fire explosion damaging my units.

They seem to have the same negative odds as lairs, dungeons, etc.

As they are hard to get in the first place, and sometimes even harder to get to (especially with the steroid-infused animals), I think they should have a better payoff than EMPTY or damage.

Not a bug, but Treasure Chests used to be a whole lot more fun.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

This is true, but there should be some sort of adjustment made according to the game speed you are playing. For example, if you happen to be playing on Marathon speed, you cannot build a unit for 30-50 turns. That's a long time to sweat out if nasties are spawning and popping out of lairs early in the game.

Yes, you can just leave both your starting units at home to defend or just explore very close to home, but that ruins the fun of early game exploration. BTW, I've noticed some AI civs like the Elves always send out both of their Scouts to explore while their first Warrior is being built. They are easy pickin's to wipe out of the game if you happen to be close to them.

This has come up before in FFH with when Orthus shows up and the main barbs spawn. I'm pretty sure it was delayed if you play at the slower speeds. I don't know if this is tough to program, but game speed does make a difference on being able to deal with early threats. Also, as usual, the human player can normally deal with this better than the AI and I've noticed AI civs going down rather quickly in 1.12.

Internal version that I'm currently using has rebalanced animals and somewhat altered savages, and I'm not seeing any issue with AI civs going down early. Still tweaking though.

As for speeds other than normal...I don't have the resources to test and balance those. If there is a method of balancing for speed that another mod is using I'm sure valk would be happy to steal it.

 

[far_wanderer]

Like I said, I generally have been able to hold off the hill giants with two warriors. Just make damn sure to settle on a hill.

I was on a hill. I was also on the other side of a river.

That is unfortunate...but nerfing the game to the extent that it is impossible to suffer an early defeat due to bad luck is not a design goal. There are a ton of ways to go down before turn 20...AI pops a lair full of monsters near you, you pop a bad lair yourself, multiple stacks of orcs spawn uncomfortably close, etc... "I started too close to a Giant Steading" is just a particularly dramatic way to go.

The problem is that it's not "too close" it's "a giant steading is somewhere on your continent". That first game the steading was at least fifteen tiles away from my border. I've now had it happen a second game on turn 30 (would possibly have been survivable if I wasn't playing the D'Tesh) where hill giants showed up from opposite directions from more than 20 tiles away.

And I'd like to suggest a change to that design goal. Ideally, you should never lose the game due to bad luck, you should lose due to your choices. The things that can kill you before turn 20 are problems, not justifications to add more. Normally if you lose, the solution is to try something different the next time. If you lose because of chance, before you have the option to do anything differently, the solution is to replay the last half hour of your life and hope the RNG is in a more charitable mood. That's not fun, that's a loading screen.

If your goal is to force players to build nothing but warriors for the first 40 turns and hope not to suffer even the slightest bit of bad luck, that's okay, but start us out with a few extra warriors to begin with so we can skip the 40 turns that are always the same and only sometimes result in a game that can be continued. Start the game at the point where we can make choices, that's why the current starting units exist.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I was on a hill. I was also on the other side of a river.

The problem is that it's not "too close" it's "a giant steading is somewhere on your continent". That first game the steading was at least fifteen tiles away from my border. I've now had it happen a second game on turn 30 (would possibly have been survivable if I wasn't playing the D'Tesh) where hill giants showed up from opposite directions from more than 20 tiles away.

And I'd like to suggest a change to that design goal. Ideally, you should never lose the game due to bad luck, you should lose due to your choices. The things that can kill you before turn 20 are problems, not justifications to add more. Normally if you lose, the solution is to try something different the next time. If you lose because of chance, before you have the option to do anything differently, the solution is to replay the last half hour of your life and hope the RNG is in a more charitable mood. That's not fun, that's a loading screen.

If your goal is to force players to build nothing but warriors for the first 40 turns and hope not to suffer even the slightest bit of bad luck, that's okay, but start us out with a few extra warriors to begin with so we can skip the 40 turns that are always the same and only sometimes result in a game that can be continued. Start the game at the point where we can make choices, that's why the current starting units exist.

I start test games constantly.

I haven't had this issue.

Nobody else has reported this particular issue.

No offense intended...but programming work to fix this particular thing is a very low priority. I'll look and see if there is an EASY way to slow giants down for a few turns...but no promises.

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, I could see giving units in the capital an extra defensive promotion, like Orbis does.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Actually, I could see giving units in the capital an extra defensive promotion, like Orbis does.

Jotnar Palace provides +40% defense...we could do that across the board.

Only downside there is that early conquest gets tougher...which isn't a problem for the way I like to play, but a PITA for folks who want to run an early blitz.

 

[Wodan]

Funny timing. I just ran into this same problem, not 1 hr ago. Two things, actually, same game. My scout was wandering about 8 tiles away and ran into one at a giant fort. It killed my scout but apparently couldn't find its way to my city as it hasn't shown up.

Secondly, I had a 2nd city and a giant fort spawned immediately outside my city border (2 tiles away!) It came intact with a str 5 hill giant. I had a scout fortified, and it killed him. Bam to the brainpan, squish, dead.

 

[Sarisin]

I play at epic speed and it takes around 15 turns to build my first Warrior. I always used to send my Scout and Warrior (if that's what I start with) out to explore and depend on my Warrior being built on time for any Skeletons or Lizardmen that showed up early.

Now, as Wanderer said, you have to change your strategy to deal with early threats. I just send out my Scout and keep my Warrior either in the capital or very close by.

In the 7 1.11-1.12 games I have started (my 7th just crapped out at turn 596) I've had Hill Giants come twice. Both times I guess I was lucky as my Warrior defended successfully. After building that first Warrior I build a Palisades. Maybe you should give that more defensive value than it has now???

Having said this, bad luck remains a part of the game - it is nothing new. I've lost games very early when Gargoyles, a Lich or groups of Lizardmen/Skeletons showed up in the past. But, I agree, it is depressing to lose this way when it is really out of your hands.

 

[Wodan]

I'm with far_wanderer that bad luck should never extend to ending your game with no possible solution by you by turn X.

 

[tokala]

I start test games constantly.

I haven't had this issue.

Nobody else has reported this particular issue.

No offense intended...but programming work to fix this particular thing is a very low priority. I'll look and see if there is an EASY way to slow giants down for a few turns...but no promises.

Oh, it's happining ocassionally for me too, but two warriors can handle it 95% of the time. Things are getting nasty if two of the brutes are assaulting you at the same time or the AI insists on popping City Busters out of Lairs. In which case I have no scruples in worldbuildering out the problem.

Naturally the AI has't got this option, so I see an average casualty rate of the AI of 15% before turn 50 on MountainCoast, Standard Size, Normal Speed.

But I would definetely appreciate if Hill Giants would not attack before say turn 25 normal speed, and the AI were somehow told to leave (at least the epic) lairs alone for a while.

The Orbis mechanism of granting the Capital a defence bonus is a really neat design idea, too.

 

[Gravage]

Just had Hyborem spawn just south of my (Bannor/Merc) kingdom, and he's not settling anywhere. There's enough space for a city, but he simply doesnt seem to settle down. Worse, Gurid is picking off some of his troops. I think he lost one of his settlers by sending it somewhere, but then being killed by Gurid.

 

[Cykur]

While I will say that there are some vicious animals that spawn sometimes in the current patch and I have had some unlucky start spots, I haven't had anything wipe me out yet. And if it did, I would shrug and start another game....I kind of like how dynamic the RiFE world is, and part of that is the risk that a particularly bad event will kill you.

That said, I put a very high premium on early security and identifying where the danger is and then avoiding it like the plague. I haven't had a giant steading pop next to me yet, but I have had Rinwell just off my coast lobbing demons at me and I survived that. Other bad luck has included wilderness infested with str 9 animals while I still was using warriors and scouts as well as having one of the blizzard spawning civs next to me dumping ice and snow on me. You just kind of suck it up and roll with it....now when I go back to playing RoM (which I also love), I find myself waiting for something crazy to happen. RiFE is sometimes brutally unfair, but it is pretty interesting and I think I like it so much because I want to see what happens next!

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Having said this, bad luck remains a part of the game - it is nothing new. I've lost games very early when Gargoyles, a Lich or groups of Lizardmen/Skeletons showed up in the past. But, I agree, it is depressing to lose this way when it is really out of your hands.

I think you hit the central point here. With as many variables as we have in play there will be a few games where you just go down in flames. There are lots of mechanics to make this less likely...flavour start, the grace period before barbarians and animals start swarming, etc... Even with those, the fact remains that some starts are either going to be super-challenging or impossible.

A steading next door sucks, to be sure. That being said...a couple of warriors should be able to stand up to a lone giant. You also have the option of running over and popping the steading before a giant spawns. If neither works out...well, that is the way the cookie crumbles.

The danger here is to take anecdotal feedback (I had one game that was ruined by giants!) and correct to said feedback without verifying it though playtesting. I'm aiming for a mod that is challenging and interesting to play. Rhyes of Civ is a good example of a challenging play experience, for reference. I see the appeal of a game where you can poke along and make mistakes without losing...but I think FFH2 and FF cover that niche more than adequately.

Lets consider the consequences of nerfing giants in particular and barbarians in general (I'll lump animals in). Right now the wandering beasties are forcing you and the AI to keep the troops home. As a result civ expansion is much slower. It takes a fair bit of time before the AI civs all make contact...which slows the advance of tech. Fewer cities per civ in the early game, which means smaller SODs.

If we change that, things go back to the way they were. The map will turn multi-colored in a hurry. All the sad consequences of that (rapid teching, whole world goes Kilmorph, no animals wandering, etc..) come back into play. You'll never lose early...but I'd rather have to restart every 3rd game after 20 turns than restart every game after 100 because I'm yawning.

Ultimately it is up to Valk...but I'm very reluctant to go crazy with the nerf bat.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm reluctant to do it too. I'd much rather just allow Capitals to grant a defensive promotion, to prevent bad luck from killing you off.

 

[Sarisin]

Honestly, I am a helluva lot more concerned with the CTDs I keep getting in the middle of my game than I am of the early nasties. I am also of the opinion every once in awhile you get that crappy start, or, worse, get killed. Fortunately, I think everyone will agree this is the rule rather than the exception.

I, too, would hate to see the mod developers throw out the baby with the bathwater here. They have pretty much solved a longstanding weakness of this game and all its mods - the rapid expansion as VK aptly describes it. If you play FFH, FF, or Orbis, you still see this expansion, that, IMO ruins many games.

Oh well, this probably shouldn't be in a bug thread and maybe it would be a good idea to get some feedback from players in some sort of poll. I'll give it a shot in a new thread....

 

[Cykur]

Honestly, I am a helluva lot more concerned with the CTDs I keep getting in the middle of my game than I am of the early nasties. I am also of the opinion every once in awhile you get that crappy start, or, worse, get killed.

Yeah, I had a very interesting game go to about turn 400ish then some event or something made it unstable and it would start getting CTD's. I would keep reloading back a few turns and it would allow me to progress a bit farther each time, but eventually would CTD. I would love to figure out what it is....the game was completely stable up until that point.

 

[odalrick]

Why not just give every civ another two warriors?

The first two builds almost need to be warriors, so it's really just a fast forward to when you can start building something else. Also two warriors will reduce randomness more than a defence boost for palaces and it will have no long term effects.