RifE New Feature Speculation

[Valkrionn]

The awful balance in rife makes more sense now.


Just because you like something when it's to your benefit in single player doesn't mean it's ok. I can't agree with you that "lategame is supposed to be broken". Lategame being broken is a ing disappointment when you just spend four hours getting there just to have the game either lose all challenge, or become impossibly difficult. The second case only happens in multiplayer of course since the AI doesn't exploit broken things like a player does (scholarship+crown).


re:lumbermills, why give the full fist to non-elf Leaves followers like that?

Excuse me? That's a design consistent in pretty much all FfH modmods, including FfH itself. Every single issue you cited come direct from the base mod, none of it was implemented, designed, or changed by myself or the rest of the RifE team. You can disagree with that, but personally, I'm okay with it; It speeds the game along, and there are enough mechanics like that that if someone else is abusing something there's plenty for you to do about it.

Again, I play single player only, so all my opinions stem from that; I'll be playing (and doing some balancing for) multi after this patch, but I doubt I'd change many of those.

Also, on FoL: Both Camps and Yarangas are eligible to build in forests. One is production, one is commerce (though tundra/snow/glacial only). FoL civs will also get access to a new improvement; Trust me, they're covered.

 

[Cuteunit]

It's kind of like how there is no phi/ind leader in BTS. Some things are too powerful together.

For discussion's sake, what are you supposed to do about it when someone gets into a position like in that save I posted in the other thread, where one (player) has more gnp AND hammers than everyone else on the map combined? That's not good for the game.

 

[Valkrionn]

It's kind of like how there is no phi/ind leader in BTS. Some things are too powerful together.

For discussion's sake, what are you supposed to do about it when someone gets into a position like in that save I posted in the other thread, where one (player) has more gnp AND hammers than everyone else on the map combined? That's not good for the game.

I agree, that one was out of control; And that's because currently, the Illians get too many bonuses from the White Hand. As I said, that one will be fixed.

The mechanics you mentioned in THIS thread, however, have been around for some time, and in each case there's something else you're able to do to raise yourself up in turn. It's those issues that are impossible to combat (Illian economy under White Hand, Frozen population (already fixed for the next version, and very nicely), etc) that I am worried about and fix.

 

[Seven05]

You'll make Scions auto spray Haunted Lands like the Legion does

You'll make Korinna the Black an Assassin unit

You'll make Harmatt not suck. God, at least give him 4base str! And maybe make his withdrawal chance actually work... it never seems to.

You'll let us settle great commanders again for +exp to units built in that city just like in regular Warlords. I hate sitting on 3-4 great commanders doing nothing after a bit of conquest.

To be fair, none of these are issues with base FfH. Then again, I don't think they are issues that you created with RifE... well the Legion one kind of is since only RifE has them but that's really more of an issue with Scions since the complaint implies that RifE's Legion of D'Tesh does it right.

See how enlightened I am with all of these meds they have me taking

ErebusContinent.py will be replaced with TyeDyePatternWorld.py for version 3.0!

 

[Valkrionn]

To be fair, none of these are issues with base FfH. Then again, I don't think they are issues that you created with RifE... well the Legion one kind of is since only RifE has them but that's really more of an issue with Scions since the complaint implies that RifE's Legion of D'Tesh does it right.

See how enlightened I am with all of these meds they have me taking

ErebusContinent.py will be replaced with TyeDyePatternWorld.py for version 3.0!

Yes, but those weren't the ones I was talking about; I only meant the 'Overpowered' late game mechanics.

 

[blade117]

Such as?

 

[Valkrionn]

Such as?

Such as the one mentioned by Cuteunit - Great Library, Scholarship, Crown, Academy.

Again, I don't view that as broken... Takes planning to get, and rushing the techs for Scholarship/Crown screw your military. That's why I had broken in quotes.

Edit: What I mean by not broken, is the various 'broken' combinations listed in the post were intended by the FfH team; Development went on far too long for mechanics like that to go unnoticed. That's not to say they'll remain that way in RifE, but I honestly don't mind them.

Also, @Cuteunit - All the changes you mentioned are very simple xml work. It would be easy to do them yourself.

 

[Calavente]

you'll make the jotnar harder to play... or have a more realistic curve of power...

I'm crushing everything with my jotnar (emperor) : early game I had more units that I didn't build than I usually have. And each conquered city is at least 2-3more jotnar citizen upgraded to units

I think the jotnar are currently OP early-mid game. Maybe late game, on marthon + huge map, when every civ has lot of cities and lot of units, the jotnar army would look small but powerful and be balanced. As for now, it is very powerful and not so small in the early game (you quickly have über trolls, and the citizen are huge on defense, you are almost un-killable early game, then mid game, building early melee than is at least 1tier better than supposed, not counting the ageaing process.

I think there is an issue there But I don't know how to balance it.
maybe reduce jotnar citizen spawn rate?
-change the jotnar spawn rate so as to have 1 at the beginning, few early game, more mid game, and many late game ? but then it will be very difficult to have more than 1-2 very old giants... so it is not a good solution but I have really no better idea.
-make the trolls get the "feral" promotion after each combat ?
-reduce all attack strength on any jotnar unit but give each a spell a la moroi : +1or+2or+6 attack strengh (so as to have as much attack strengh has they have in the current version) but high risk of turning enraged then barb. (symbolize that the jotnar are mostly peacful but can enter a rage if pushed a bit more ?), ageing reduces the chances of rage and turning barb as wiser jotnar may use theire full power on attack without losing their mind...+ giving them back this attack strength inside their own borders so they can defend by attacking pillagers, but are mostly not able to attack foreign civs ?

 

[Milaga]

I tried playing the Jotnar recently, but their wacky tech tree was a bit too much for me to take in at the time. All I know is they own exploring lairs (moreso than Sidar and Duin run Diovello.) And any game I play with them they are hyper-expansive monsters, found about half the religions and massively outtech everyone. So I don't play with them anymore.

 

[Cuteunit]

To be fair, none of these are issues with base FfH. Then again, I don't think they are issues that you created with RifE... well the Legion one kind of is since only RifE has them but that's really more of an issue with Scions since the complaint implies that RifE's Legion of D'Tesh does it right.

See how enlightened I am with all of these meds they have me taking

ErebusContinent.py will be replaced with TyeDyePatternWorld.py for version 3.0!

in normal Fall Further Scions are ok (maybe a little op early game and underpowered by middlegame...)

In RiFE food is EVERYWHERE, so being Fallow isnt much of a boost as it was before, and you give up everything for it. I've just not been able to keep Scions competitive in multiplayer, despite many games of trying. Far easier with any other civ, particularly Austrin or Lanun. Rife's cornucopia-ness is kind of doing that rise of mankind thing that favors really fast growing big empires.


re: XML changes... what xml would I change?

 

[Cuteunit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuteunit
You'll make Korinna the Black an Assassin unit .

She was originally. There's a reason that was changed.

She should be again. She's horriweak compared to Red until the hauntstalk promotion not just because of lower base STR but because shes ineligible as a recon unit for a lot of the useful combat promotions. Can crush entire early empires with Red if the timing is right, Black not so much.

 

[Valkrionn]

in normal Fall Further Scions are ok (maybe a little op early game and underpowered by middlegame...)

In RiFE food is EVERYWHERE, so being Fallow isnt much of a boost as it was before, and you give up everything for it. I've just not been able to keep Scions competitive in multiplayer, despite many games of trying. Far easier with any other civ, particularly Austrin or Lanun. Rife's cornucopia-ness is kind of doing that rise of mankind thing that favors really fast growing big empires.


re: XML changes... what xml would I change?

I'm not sure how we've added so much food? Standard yields are the same; Can build different improvements, but they offer less food than the farm. Only new thing is being able to spread resources, and that's going from 1 in 1000 to 1 in 1750.


On the xml files; Depends on what you want to change. Most of your suggestions would be buildinginfos.

 

[Cuteunit]

I'm not sure how we've added so much food? Standard yields are the same; Can build different improvements, but they offer less food than the farm. Only new thing is being able to spread resources, and that's going from 1 in 1000 to 1 in 1750.


On the xml files; Depends on what you want to change. Most of your suggestions would be buildinginfos.

mushrooms. I've had more than one capitol city that had mushrooms like mario brothers.

The autoterraform civs, lizards most of all

Anyone with sun mana making their own floodplains

Egalitarian

and yeah, spreading pastures. Speaking of which... can farms spread? I've not seen it happen yet even running a grigori agristocracy

 

[Valkrionn]

mushrooms. I've had more than one capitol city that had mushrooms like mario brothers.

The autoterraform civs, lizards most of all

Anyone with sun mana making their own floodplains

Egalitarian

and yeah, spreading pastures. Speaking of which... can farms spread? I've not seen it happen yet even running a grigori agristocracy

Yeah, we're removing the Mushroom event (the culprit behind a lot of it).

Autoterraforming is only used for those civs which rely on a certain terrain type.

Floodplains cause lots of unhealth, maybe we could drop the chance/increase time required.

Egalitarian is only used for one leader, and is being nerfed (well, not in food, but commerce).

Farms can spread resources; The main thing is it is SPREADING, not DISCOVERING. Which means you must first have a sample of the resource (Can spread Corn IF you have corn already).

 

[Cuteunit]

The spread must be extremely low chance? Is the spread progressive or just random?

 

[Valkrionn]

The spread must be extremely low chance? Is the spread progressive or just random?

It's a 1 in 1000 chance (all resources in the current version have that); Entirely random. I've moved it to 1 in 1750, as I don't really want it to be something you have to rely on.

 

[Cuteunit]

Will it spread to tiles that do not have the required improvement?
like will a farmed Wheat spread to a nearby Cottage

Would actually be more interesting if the spread was more common than that... no wonder I almost never see it. Affected by civics and tech choices maybe? (Sanitation, agrarianism, medicine, machinery?)

 

[Valkrionn]

Will it spread to tiles that do not have the required improvement?
like will a farmed Wheat spread to a nearby Cottage

Would actually be more interesting if the spread was more common than that... no wonder I almost never see it. Affected by civics and tech choices maybe? (Sanitation, agrarianism, medicine, machinery?)

Think you misunderstand: It's the same mechanic Mines have always had, it just requires the resource first. So any farm can 'spread' corn, so long as you have corn from somewhere.

Currently, I believe it's affected by the same tag as Discovering is, so Earth mana increases the chance. Been meaning to make a new tag, give it to Creation mana maybe?

 

[Vermicious Knid]

you'll make the jotnar harder to play... or have a more realistic curve of power...

I'm crushing everything with my jotnar (emperor) : early game I had more units that I didn't build than I usually have. And each conquered city is at least 2-3more jotnar citizen upgraded to units

I think the jotnar are currently OP early-mid game. Maybe late game, on marthon + huge map, when every civ has lot of cities and lot of units, the jotnar army would look small but powerful and be balanced. As for now, it is very powerful and not so small in the early game (you quickly have über trolls, and the citizen are huge on defense, you are almost un-killable early game, then mid game, building early melee than is at least 1tier better than supposed, not counting the ageaing process.

I think there is an issue there But I don't know how to balance it.
maybe reduce jotnar citizen spawn rate?
-change the jotnar spawn rate so as to have 1 at the beginning, few early game, more mid game, and many late game ? but then it will be very difficult to have more than 1-2 very old giants... so it is not a good solution but I have really no better idea.
-make the trolls get the "feral" promotion after each combat ?
-reduce all attack strength on any jotnar unit but give each a spell a la moroi : +1or+2or+6 attack strengh (so as to have as much attack strengh has they have in the current version) but high risk of turning enraged then barb. (symbolize that the jotnar are mostly peacful but can enter a rage if pushed a bit more ?), ageing reduces the chances of rage and turning barb as wiser jotnar may use theire full power on attack without losing their mind...+ giving them back this attack strength inside their own borders so they can defend by attacking pillagers, but are mostly not able to attack foreign civs ?

To be perfectly honest balancing the Jotnar got put on the backburner once I fixed the bugs...I started working on new features.

After the next patch I can take another look and try to nerf them a bit without killing the fun.

 

[Milaga]

Think you misunderstand: It's the same mechanic Mines have always had, it just requires the resource first. So any farm can 'spread' corn, so long as you have corn from somewhere.

Currently, I believe it's affected by the same tag as Discovering is, so Earth mana increases the chance. Been meaning to make a new tag, give it to Creation mana maybe?

Water - Fishing boats, Farms, Plantations
Creation - Pastures, Camps, Yaranga
Earth - Mines, Quarries

I would say Sun for farms and plantations, but Sun is already pretty strong and water is pretty weak. No one ever wants more than one water.