Riots in St. Louis

[Traitorfish]

Are there really any distinctively "poor white" names, in an American context? Even things like "Billy-bob" are colloquialisms; it's not like you'd actually file an application as "Billy-Bob [Surname]", you'd write "William Robert [Surname]" or "William R. [Surname]". The closest I could think would be names associated with historically-poor ethnic groups, like "Seamus" or "Ivan", but that's not directly a matter of class.

In the UK, there are certain names which are stereotypically working class (although not specifically with black people or white people; just with non-Asians, really), but I'm not really familiar with anything like that in the US, where people generally have a less pronounced sense of class. (Even the "red-neck" stereotype is in a large part about regional prejudices, and to some extent can be thought of as an ethnic prejudice in its own right.)

 

[luiz]

Are there really any distinctively "poor white" names, in an American context? Even things like "Billy-bob" are colloquialisms; it's not like you'd actually file an application as "Billy-Bob [Surname]", you'd write "William Robert [Surname]" or "William R. [Surname]". The closest I could think would be names associated with historically-poor ethnic groups, like "Seamus" or "Ivan", but that's not directly a matter of class.

In the UK, there are certain names which are stereotypically working class (although not specifically with black people or white people; just with non-Asians, really), but I'm not really familiar with anything like that in the US, where people generally have a less pronounced sense of class. (Even the "red-neck" stereotype is in a large part about regional prejudices, and to some extent can be thought of as an ethnic prejudice in its own right.)

Nope, there are people who are actually named "Billy Bob". Not William Robert, Billy Bob. Plenty of people are just named "Billy" as well in redneck country. I know several of them.

There are many redneck names which may suffer prejudice in non-redneck country. Here are a few (those are all actual names, not nicknames or colloquialisms):

-Billy Bob
-Billy Ray
-Bo
-Bubba
-Buck
-Cletus
-Jed
-Jim Bob / Jimmy Bob
-Trigger
And many others...

 

[warpus]

I don't think anyone up here would care about someone's name. We have a lot of immigrants and people from all over. Unless your name is Jesus Mohammed Buddha Van der Batman, I don't think any large company is going to care. They are going to look at your qualifications and check who you know - and who knows you.

Maybe that's just my unique perspective though - in my field there are a lot of immigrants, and so a lot of "weird" names. There's just no sense in trying to figure out what a name might mean in terms of what sort of person is applying.. You just don't know. There is too much variance.

But maybe I'm just ignorant.. .. ..

 

[luiz]

Okay, that could be, but that suggests a racial problem in addition to a class problem. That is, if poor people are presumed to be stupid, and black people are presumed to be poor, that's two negative stereotypes at work, not just one. Are there any names that you think are commonly perceived to be black and upper-class? Barack, maybe, now.

I think the issue is not that black is always presumed to be poor (though it certainly reinforces that perception), it's that distinctively black names are perceived to be poor and ignorant, just like distinctively redneck names.

Well, I had to look up "Malia", as I had never heard it before President Obama was elected. How many people would bother to do that, and how many would just lump "Malia" in with "Ebony" and "Shanice" if she wasn't a First Daughter? Also, while "Kwame" is a Ghanaian name, it isn't only a Ghanian name. The first Kwame that comes up on Google is an American NBA player. As for what Dr. Appiah might name his children, when I mentioned him above, I wasn't certain that I was remembering his name correctly, so I Googled him. I couldn't help noticing that he's sometimes listed as "K. Anthony Appiah." I wonder why that could be..?

Malia as far as I know is a Hawaiian name. Appiah is very much opposed to Africancentrism and ethnic nationalism in general, so I'm sure if he had kids (he is gay so he won't) he wouldn't choose something to make a point that he is black.

And Kwame is an African name, unlike DeShawn, which is Black American. Of course, Americans of any ethnicity may name their kids Kwame, just like they can give them a Japanese or Norwegian name, but that doesn't change the fact that it is an African name.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I think the issue is not that black is always presumed to be poor (though it certainly reinforces that perception), it's that distinctively black names are perceived to be poor and ignorant, just like distinctively redneck names.

Yes, but the point of the study is that it's only the people with distinctively African-American names who are routinely presumed to actually be black. One doesn't know the ethnicity of an Anthony with as much certainty (even though there's no reason a white guy couldn't be named DeShawn - he'd probably experience some discrimination for his name, in instances where people didn't see his face).

Malia as far as I know is a Hawaiian name. Appiah is very much opposed to Africancentrism and ethnic nationalism in general, so I'm sure if he had kids (he is gay so he won't) he wouldn't choose something to make a point that he is black.

And Kwame is an African name, unlike DeShawn, which is Black American. Of course, Americans of any ethnicity may name their kids Kwame, just like they can give them a Japanese or Norwegian name, but that doesn't change the fact that it is an African name.

Yes, Malia is Hawaiian, but my point is that most people probably don't know that, and the one Malia that most Americans know is black. The whole point here is the perception (of black people, by police and others), especially where it has a tenuous relationship with reality, and where the discrimination is not deliberate or even conscious. That douchebag on the cable news show who said that cops wouldn't be in black neighborhoods in such numbers if black people would stop shooting each other probably has no real knowledge at all of black neighborhoods. The fact that Kwame is not exclusively African-American is irrelevant here.

(And why would you assume that a gay man won't have children? )

 

[warpus]

I think one issue here might be that people automatically assume that names such as DeJohn or whatever are .. well, you know.. names of people who live in bad parts of town... and so might have associations with other "bad" people and not what it takes to become a sandwich artist or lawyer or whatever.

But of course I do not deny that there is racism that takes place as well. I just think that "Oh, this person is black, throw away resume" might not happen as often as "I associate this type of name with gangsters, throw away resume".

 

[EgonSpengler]

I don't think anyone up here would care about someone's name. We have a lot of immigrants and people from all over. Unless your name is Jesus Mohammed Buddha Van der Batman, I don't think any large company is going to care. They are going to look at your qualifications and check who you know - and who knows you.

Maybe that's just my unique perspective though - in my field there are a lot of immigrants, and so a lot of "weird" names. There's just no sense in trying to figure out what a name might mean in terms of what sort of person is applying.. You just don't know. There is too much variance.

But maybe I'm just ignorant.. .. ..

iirc, the study only involved employers in the United States. Still, I've had Europeans claim that racism doesn't exist over there before, and, well...

I think many (or all?) of the companies used in the study had inclusive employment policies, and not one person owned up to any discrimination in hiring. Part of the point, iirc, was that a lot of discrimination is accidental and/or unconscious, sometimes by well-intentioned people. Someone once challenged a famous symphony conductor who insisted that women were less-skilled in playing certain instruments, particularly the big ones like kettle drums, tubas, and cellos. He was so convinced that he agreed to a blind test. Musicians were brought into the theater in a kind of audition, to play for him from behind a curtain. The musicians even did things like wear no perfume and take their shoes off, to avoid even the slightest hint at gender. The conductor then rendered his opinion on their playing and was proven completely wrong; there was no discernible difference between the men and the women. I forget exactly where I read this. It might have been a Malcolm Gladwell book.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I think one issue here might be that people automatically assume that names such as DeJohn or whatever are .. well, you know.. names of people who live in bad parts of town... and so might have associations with other "bad" people and not what it takes to become a sandwich artist or lawyer or whatever.

But of course I do not deny that there is racism that takes place as well. I just think that "Oh, this person is black, throw away resume" might not happen as often as "I associate this type of name with gangsters, throw away resume".

I don't think it's even that deliberate, but yes, they may well be doing it without realizing it. Anyway, if the names a person associates with "bad parts of town" are mostly associated with black people, then that person is racist.

 

[warpus]

I'd love to see such a study in Canada. I didn't mean to imply that racism doesn't happen here - but we just don't have the same type of segregated black communities here, so I don't know if people up here associate "names like that" with "the bad part of town" or whatever.

But that does seem to happen in the U.S. - African Americans have tried to create a unique subculture for themselves, and that's where these names are coming from. But unfortunately, such names are also now associated with unwanted elements of society. At least they seem to be anyway, whether it's racist or not. I'm sure it's like with all things - sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

 

[Traitorfish]

But that does seem to happen in the U.S. - African Americans have tried to create a unique subculture for themselves, and that's where these names are coming from.

I don't think that "tried" is the right word. There have been distinct African-American subcultures in North American since the 1680s. If the long historical view, most contemporary African-Americans are very highly-assimilated. What's changed is that African-Americans have begun making their distinctness more explicit. Some of these "black" names derive from that movement, particularly those with African roots, but others do not.

"DeShawn", for example, one of the names given as a stereotypically black, is an Irish name with a French prefix, which is hard to read as a very deliberate assertion of African-American identity, so it's likely that it reflects the preferences of a pre-existing African-American subculture.

 

[warpus]

I worded things the way I did because I've been under the impression that these names came out as a result of them attempting to create a distinct culture for themselves, since a lot of them used to be slaves and don't "remember" the history of their ancestors. And WASP-like culture isn't good enough, because.. well, you know. I just wasn't sure when exactly this happened. It's all based on random things on the internet I've read too, so I take it all with a grain of salt.

 

[Traitorfish]

It didn't happen, though, is my point, or at least not really. There have been distinct African-American subcultures for as long as there have been large African-American populations. I wasn't being vague when I said "1680s", either, that's exactly when large numbers of African slaves start arriving in Virginia and you get these distinct African-American slave communities, where previously black slaves in North America had come across in small numbers, tended to be highly assimilated, and lived and worked along whites. Some African-American subcultures actually become more distinct as time passes, especially in the Lower South, where you've got large numbers of African-born slaves living on large plantations and dealing with very few whites. The extreme example are the Gullah people of the Carolina Sea Islands, who spoke a highly distinct patois of English and various African languages which is basically incomprehensible to outsiders.

What's happened since the 1960s is simply the recognition and celebration of these distinct African-American subcultures. Whites historically regarded African-American subculture as an ignorant aping of "civilised" culture, shot through with African remnants. Many educated blacks internalised this prejudice, so until the 1960s, assimilationism tended to dominate in black politics. Then you see the emergence of the Black Pride movement, the influence of pan-African and anticolonial thought and the increasing mainstream influence of black popular culture, which all combine to give African-Americans a much greater sense of themselves, to think of African-American culture as culture and as a culture, and not just the imitation of white culture. Even the construction "African-American" follows this logic, asserting a distinct history and culture for black Americans analogues to that of Irish-Americans, Polish-Americans, etc., where the older term "Negro" merely described their race.

Some of the names that are stereotypically "black" reflect this, particularly those with African roots. Others don't, or at least not quite so explicitly, and simply reflect a different set of traditional or aesthetic preferences within existing and distinct subcultures. What's changed isn't really that black Americans have different names, but that we've reached the point where black Americans are not longer willing to accept that they shouldn't have different names, are no longer willing to accept that they have to conform to WASPish norms to be taken seriously.

 

[warpus]

That's all very interesting. I have also found this though:

Prior to the 1950s and 1960s, most African-American names closely resembled those used within European American culture.[1] Even within the Caucasian population, most babies of that era were given a few very common names with children using nicknames to distinguish the various people with the same name.[2] It was also quite common for immigrants and cultural minorities to choose baby names or change their names to fit in with the larger American culture. This applied to both given names and surnames.[2][3] With the rise of 1960s civil rights movement, there was a dramatic rise in names of various origins. San Diego State University professor Jean Twenge believes that the shift toward unique baby names is also the result of the cultural shift in America that values individuality over conformity.[2]

So I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but it does seem like a lot of these types of names are a rather recent innovation.

I wonder if anyone's done any studies to see if people of a lower socio-economic status are more likely to go with such a name. So for example, let's look at your average middle class black family, living in suburbia. What do they name their kids, generally speaking?

See, I think there's two things going on here. There's African-American culture.. and there's "thug" culture. And a lot of people will look at a name like DeShawn and immediately associate it with "thug" culture.. You know - low hanging pants, no job, hangs out on the street every day, steals, whistles at women in a sexist manner.. and so on.

It's an unfortunate stereotype, which is why I wonder if middle class African-Americans (that's annoying to type.. saying black is okay, right?) families have started to move away from naming their kids like this - or not.

 

[luiz]

As a related note, a recent (last few decades) development in Brazil is that poor / ignorant people will give their kids English-sounding names, using Portuguese phonetics, which results in bizarre stuff such as "Uéslei" (Wesley), Uóchintom (Washington) and also others which just want to sound English without trying to copy any particular name, such as Valdson, Jobson, and so on and so forth. By contrast, better-off / more educated people have reverted to uber-traditional and old school Portuguese names that were out of fashion just a few decades ago, like João, Pedro, Joaquim, Manuel, etc.

There's no doubt whatsoever that people with the faux-English names face discrimination. I admit I cringe every time I'm introduced to a "Vandercleison" or something along those lines, and it's entirely possible that subconsciously that will have a negative effect on my evaluation of the capabilities of the person, at least as a first impression.

 

[Commodore]

I don't suppose I know. Maybe we should arrest and try them to find out. You know like the Constitution you hate so much calls for.

Please tell me what in anything I have said indicates that I hate the Constitution? I have a feeling this little childish outburst is based on your wild assumptions about what you think I believe rather than on anything that could even be remotely considered an accurate interpretation of what I said.

 

[bhsup]

I think he's just getting your ranks confused and thinks you are Colonel instead of Commodore.

 

[Gary Childress]

The New York Times journalist who published Darren Wilson’s home address wants police protection and has been calling the police nonstop, Gotnews.com has learned.

Julie Bosman “keeps calling the 020th District station complaining about people harassing and threatening her,” our source told us. She’s also “complaining about numerous food deliveries being sent to her residence.”

Chicago police department sources alerted Gotnews.com about the glaring double standard on Friday.

Gotnews.com published Julie Bosman’s address in Chicago after she published the address of Officer Darren Wilson and his new wife in a widely criticized move.

http://gotnews.com/breaking-cops-nyt-reporter-published-darrenwilson-address-calling-cops-nonstop/

Wish I could comment more on this but it really does defy my imagination at the moment.

 

[Commodore]

http://gotnews.com/breaking-cops-nyt-reporter-published-darrenwilson-address-calling-cops-nonstop/

Wish I could comment more on this but it really does defy my imagination at the moment.

Good. Maybe she'll think twice now before putting someone's life in danger with her irresponsible reporting.

 

[Gary Childress]

But now what about Gotnews.com? Is someone going to post their personal addresses in the news? Where does all this end?

 

[Commodore]

But now what about Gotnews.com? Is someone going to post their personal addresses in the news? Where does all this end?

I don't think it would be appropriate to post their addresses since they were just trying to show her the potential consequences of such irresponsible reporting.

It also showed what hypocrites the reporters at the NYT are. Apparently they think it is okay to put a target on the back of someone who doesn't fit in with their political views and calling it fair reporting, but all of a sudden when it happens to one of their own it is an outrage and start demanding the police do something about it.