More Riots in STL

[Hygro]

Isn't there a bit of game theory in play here?

Young Black Man finds himself in situation where he believe the police may kill him without justification or fear of retribution. Dice are rolled, this time Young Black Man happens to be carrying a gun. Young Black Man is further certain his possession of a gun will get him street executed. He calculates his only chance for survival for what could be for less than a traffic stop is to blast his way out and hope to escape.

Regardless of the game's relation to the specifics of this case, is it not reasonable that the police are creating a situation in which otherwise not-guilty folk are forced to make their street executions look legitimate by taking that chance at survival? Are we also not risking creating a generation of paranoid youth afraid of the police and thus more likely to try something drastic?

Merry Christmas

 

[Commodore]

Isn't there a bit of game theory in play here?

Young Black Man finds himself in situation where he believe the police may kill him without justification or fear of retribution. Dice are rolled, this time Young Black Man happens to be carrying a gun. Young Black Man is further certain his possession of a gun will get him street executed. He calculates his only chance for survival for what could be for less than a traffic stop is to blast his way out and hope to escape.

Regardless of the game's relation to the specifics of this case, is it not reasonable that the police are creating a situation in which otherwise not-guilty folk are forced to make their street executions look legitimate by taking that chance at survival? Are we also not risking creating a generation of paranoid youth afraid of the police and thus more likely to try something drastic?

Merry Christmas

Not really. If you have a gun on you and the cops stop you for something else, one of the questions they ask you (as long as you are cooperative and do not escalate the situation by being confrontational) is "do you have any weapons on you that I/we should be aware of?" If you respond with a yes, then you tell them where it is on you or your property, but don't reach for it; they will take it off of you.

Basically, it doesn't matter whether you are innocent or not, when a cop stops you, you need to do everything to make that cop feel like you are not a threat. That means not arguing and following all of their instructions immediately and not doing or saying anything unless they tell you to or ask you a question. Doing that will drastically reduce your chance of being injured or killed by the police, no matter what the color of your skin is. It may feel humiliating or degrading at the time, but in the street at the moment you are stopped is not the time to argue with the police because they are going to be on edge due to their uncertainty about how you are going to react to them approaching you. I don't know about you or any young black men out there, but I would much rather spend a few nights in jail waiting to be taken before a judge for whatever the police think I did, than to spend a few nights in the hospital or eternity in a coffin because I decided to "stand my ground" against the police.

I also think it is a little unfair to use the term "street execution" as it is a loaded term that is not an accurate representation of what is happening. To me, a street execution conjures up images of an already subdued suspect being killed, and that is something that very rarely happens; even in the unjustified police killings.

 

[Senethro]

Not really. If you have a gun on you and the cops stop you for something else, one of the questions they ask you (as long as you are cooperative and do not escalate the situation by being confrontational) is "do you have any weapons on you that I/we should be aware of?" If you respond with a yes, then you tell them where it is on you or your property, but don't reach for it; they will take it off of you.

Basically, it doesn't matter whether you are innocent or not, when a cop stops you, you need to do everything to make that cop feel like you are not a threat. That means not arguing and following all of their instructions immediately and not doing or saying anything unless they tell you to or ask you a question. Doing that will drastically reduce your chance of being injured or killed by the police, no matter what the color of your skin is. It may feel humiliating or degrading at the time, but in the street at the moment you are stopped is not the time to argue with the police because they are going to be on edge due to their uncertainty about how you are going to react to them approaching you. I don't know about you or any young black men out there, but I would much rather spend a few nights in jail waiting to be taken before a judge for whatever the police think I did, than to spend a few nights in the hospital or eternity in a coffin because I decided to "stand my ground" against the police.

I also think it is a little unfair to use the term "street execution" as it is a loaded term that is not an accurate representation of what is happening. To me, a street execution conjures up images of an already subdued suspect being killed, and that is something that very rarely happens; even in the unjustified police killings.

This is sound advice when in countries where they know how many police homicides they have in a single year.

 

[MobBoss]

This is sound advice when in countries where they know how many police homicides they have in a single year.

It's sound advice anywhere.

 

[Senethro]

It's sound advice anywhere.

Theres plenty of nations with corrupt institutions where the police are not your friend.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not really. If you have a gun on you and the cops stop you for something else, one of the questions they ask you (as long as you are cooperative and do not escalate the situation by being confrontational) is "do you have any weapons on you that I/we should be aware of?" If you respond with a yes, then you tell them where it is on you or your property, but don't reach for it; they will take it off of you.

Basically, it doesn't matter whether you are innocent or not, when a cop stops you, you need to do everything to make that cop feel like you are not a threat. That means not arguing and following all of their instructions immediately and not doing or saying anything unless they tell you to or ask you a question. Doing that will drastically reduce your chance of being injured or killed by the police, no matter what the color of your skin is. It may feel humiliating or degrading at the time, but in the street at the moment you are stopped is not the time to argue with the police because they are going to be on edge due to their uncertainty about how you are going to react to them approaching you. I don't know about you or any young black men out there, but I would much rather spend a few nights in jail waiting to be taken before a judge for whatever the police think I did, than to spend a few nights in the hospital or eternity in a coffin because I decided to "stand my ground" against the police.

I also think it is a little unfair to use the term "street execution" as it is a loaded term that is not an accurate representation of what is happening. To me, a street execution conjures up images of an already subdued suspect being killed, and that is something that very rarely happens; even in the unjustified police killings.

While it is true that it rarely happens, if you are the kind of person that it does happen to it is hard not to let it affect your thinking. When a cop in San Bernardino county says 'get on your knees' the logic of 'cooperate and everything will be okay' is balanced against this. When a cop is pulling out his gun for no particular reason it's hard not to think he may just shoot you for no particular reason, so grabbing the gun may seem reasonable.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Theres plenty of nations with corrupt institutions where the police are not your friend.

The police are always your friend if you do enough sucking up.

 

[Commodore]

While it is true that it rarely happens, if you are the kind of person that it does happen to it is hard not to let it affect your thinking. When a cop in San Bernardino county says 'get on your knees' the logic of 'cooperate and everything will be okay' is balanced against this. When a cop is pulling out his gun for no particular reason it's hard not to think he may just shoot you for no particular reason, so grabbing the gun may seem reasonable.

I can definitely see why someone would think that way, but if survival is your number one concern then cooperating with the police is almost always the better option.

Think about it: If you cooperate with the cop, there is a slight chance that he may kill you anyway because he's a bad cop. However, if you decide to pull a gun or some other weapon on the cop to defend yourself there is a 100% chance the cop will kill you. Even if you manage to defend yourself from that cop by shooting him first, you can bet his buddies are going to find you and either kill you on the spot or make sure you get the death penalty.

So it boils down to: Cooperate and there is a chance you will still die, or resist and your death becomes a certainty. Basic survival instinct should then dictate that the former option is favorable to the latter.

 

[Senethro]

So it boils down to: Cooperate and there is a chance you will still die, or resist and your death becomes a certainty. Basic survival instinct should then dictate that the former option is favorable to the latter.

So tell us why you think some Americans don't see it that way.

 

[Labtec600]

I'm sure there is some mentally unstable white lady that wasn't on the scene that the DA will let testify to the grand jury about what went down.

Yeah. Then a construction worker will claim that it was three cops involved and one just walked up and shot the guy.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I can definitely see why someone would think that way, but if survival is your number one concern then cooperating with the police is almost always the better option.

Think about it: If you cooperate with the cop, there is a slight chance that he may kill you anyway because he's a bad cop. However, if you decide to pull a gun or some other weapon on the cop to defend yourself there is a 100% chance the cop will kill you. Even if you manage to defend yourself from that cop by shooting him first, you can bet his buddies are going to find you and either kill you on the spot or make sure you get the death penalty.

So it boils down to: Cooperate and there is a chance you will still die, or resist and your death becomes a certainty. Basic survival instinct should then dictate that the former option is favorable to the latter.

There is always the 'strike first and eliminate the opposition' option. That would be the one the cops forgot was available when they declared war on the populace. Just in the past couple years there have been a whole lot of demonstrations that the cops are far more vulnerable than has been the common perception.

Not that I'm advocating random cop killing or anything like it. Just making the point that the police really do exist at the whim of the public, and if they maintain an 'us versus them' situation they will inevitably lose in the long run.

 

[Commodore]

There is always the 'strike first and eliminate the opposition' option. That would be the one the cops forgot was available when they declared war on the populace. Just in the past couple years there have been a whole lot of demonstrations that the cops are far more vulnerable than has been the common perception.

Not that I'm advocating random cop killing or anything like it. Just making the point that the police really do exist at the whim of the public, and if they maintain an 'us versus them' situation they will inevitably lose in the long run.

Agreed. The more the police militarize the more the population is going to mistrust and resist them. It is a destructive cycle that needs to stop and the way our police are trained and how they operate need serious reform.

That's all "big picture" type stuff though. I'm talking about the face-to-face incidents like the one in the OP of this topic. In those types of encounters where it is just you and the cop, you have a much better chance of survival by not resisting. Like I said, even if you get the drop on the cop and kill him before he kills you, chances are you are going to be found and eventually killed by his cop buddies. So if your objective is to continue living then you shouldn't resist. If that's not your goal though then, by all means, resist if you think that is the appropriate course of action.

So tell us why you think some Americans don't see it that way.

Don't know. If I had to venture a guess, I would say heat of the moment and having a gun in your face tend to send the average person's brain into panic mode and they stop thinking clearly. Sure, I can say what I am saying while sitting in my home where everything is calm and I have time to think about these things clearly, but put me (or any other person for that matter) in a situation where a cop has a gun pointed at me and who knows how I'll react. Maybe I'll stay calm, maybe I won't; maybe my military training will kick in and I'll just automatically move to neutralize the threat without even thinking about it. The point being that you just really don't know how people will react in tense situations, nor can you know what is going through their head during those situations.

 

[Hygro]

Not really. If you have a gun on you and the cops stop you for something else, one of the questions they ask you (as long as you are cooperative and do not escalate the situation by being confrontational) is "do you have any weapons on you that I/we should be aware of?" If you respond with a yes, then you tell them where it is on you or your property, but don't reach for it; they will take it off of you.

Basically, it doesn't matter whether you are innocent or not, when a cop stops you, you need to do everything to make that cop feel like you are not a threat. That means not arguing and following all of their instructions immediately and not doing or saying anything unless they tell you to or ask you a question. Doing that will drastically reduce your chance of being injured or killed by the police, no matter what the color of your skin is. It may feel humiliating or degrading at the time, but in the street at the moment you are stopped is not the time to argue with the police because they are going to be on edge due to their uncertainty about how you are going to react to them approaching you. I don't know about you or any young black men out there, but I would much rather spend a few nights in jail waiting to be taken before a judge for whatever the police think I did, than to spend a few nights in the hospital or eternity in a coffin because I decided to "stand my ground" against the police.

I also think it is a little unfair to use the term "street execution" as it is a loaded term that is not an accurate representation of what is happening. To me, a street execution conjures up images of an already subdued suspect being killed, and that is something that very rarely happens; even in the unjustified police killings.

Street murder then?

I agree with what you're saying but police are way more likely to misperceive young black men as threats than they would perceive me. Like the emotional designation is not "person who may be dangerous" but "threat". Even if it's driven by in-the-moment-paranoia, if a black kid thinks the police he's dealing with perceive him as a threat he might not see cooperation as a viable survival strategy.

I've had cops get spontaneously angry at me inappropriately and I'm polite and non-threatening, one once threatening to throw me in jail over politely informing him my lawyer recommended not giving a statement for a non-serious car accident . I can't imagine what it's like for a gun-toting black kid in a more volatile area.

 

[Smote]

I'm all for being reasonable to cops as well. Reasonable involves wishing they'd be more easily jailed for misconduct.