More Riots in STL

[warpus]

Just get a couple black officers to shoot some white kids dead and it'll all balance itself out.

 

[Senethro]

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/dataRestriction_inj.html

To a couple of the posts above this one. I of course expect that when an officer uses deadly force that he was justified in it, thats one of the things we pay them for. We expect them to use deadly force only when appropriate, we spend hundreds of millions of dolllars across the nation to ensure they are properly trained in all facets of their job. I expect that if I see on the news that someone was shot by the Police that the Police Officer involved used that training prior to pulling the trigger. When there are cases where they did not, I expect the legal system to handle it as needed.

Now to the stats, if we take a look we can see that whites were indeed killed in higher numbers then blacks but proportionally to their number in the population blacks have a higher percentage rate of death by Police. Continuing with that thought why is that you ask? Blacks have a significantly higher rate of crime then whites or any other race.

Lets take a look at one area of the country for instance. New York City.
Black Population: 23%
White Population: 35%
Crime in the City
Black shooting involved crimes: 80%
White shooting involved crimes: 1.8%

These stats albeit only a single area of the country represent a broader problem because in most urban areas Blacks are 2/3rds more likely to be involved in crime then any other ethnicity.

Why I ask myself would Blacks be shot by Police more often then Whites or any other ethnicity?

Please don't hold back. Just skip straight to the stage where you tell us how black people are inferior and deserve every shooting. Reeling your actual opinions out of you over several pages is tiresome enough without doing it in every thread.

 

[EgonSpengler]

This "a few bad cops" meme is nearly as out of control as the cops are. The Justice Department's findings of rampant civil rights violations and use of excessive force in multiple police departments has been documented. Here's another one (what is this, eight now? ten?), from less than a week ago: Department of Justice Takes Legal Action to Address Pattern and Practice of Excessive Force and Violence at NYC Jails on Rikers Island that Violates the Constitutional Rights of Young Male Inmates.

On August 4, 2014, the department issued a report that concluded that “a deep-seated culture of violence is pervasive throughout the adolescent facilities at Rikers, and DOC staff routinely use force not as a last resort, but instead as a means to control the adolescent population and punish disorderly or disrespectful behavior.”

And, yes, black Americans are subjected to a much higher rate of violence and civil rights violations by police than white Americans: Deadly Force, in Black and White: A ProPublica analysis of killings by police shows outsize risk for young black males.

Young black males in recent years were at a far greater risk of being shot dead by police than their white counterparts – 21 times greater i, according to a ProPublica analysis of federally collected data on fatal police shootings.

The 1,217 deadly police shootings from 2010 to 2012 captured in the federal data show that blacks, age 15 to 19, were killed at a rate of 31.17 per million, while just 1.47 per million white males in that age range died at the hands of police.

For God's sake, even black police officers worry about getting the stuffing beaten out of them by other cops: Off duty, black cops in New York feel threat from fellow police

What’s emerging now is that, within the thin blue line of the NYPD, there is another divide - between black and white officers.

Reuters interviewed 25 African American male officers on the NYPD, 15 of whom are retired and 10 of whom are still serving. All but one said that, when off duty and out of uniform, they had been victims of racial profiling, which refers to using race or ethnicity as grounds for suspecting someone of having committed a crime.

The officers said this included being pulled over for no reason, having their heads slammed against their cars, getting guns brandished in their faces, being thrown into prison vans and experiencing stop and frisks while shopping. The majority of the officers said they had been pulled over multiple times while driving. Five had had guns pulled on them.

 

[Archbob]

Please don't hold back. Just skip straight to the stage where you tell us how black people are inferior and deserve every shooting. Reeling your actual opinions out of you over several pages is tiresome enough without doing it in every thread.

You can't refute his stats though. Blacks are much more likely to commit crimes in New York, so they're going to get shot more.

 

[Colonel]

Please don't hold back. Just skip straight to the stage where you tell us how black people are inferior and deserve every shooting. Reeling your actual opinions out of you over several pages is tiresome enough without doing it in every thread.

I don't think blacks are inferior, but I do think that black culture plays a huge part in propagating a violent black youth as evidenced by how much crime they account for. Again look at the New York stats 80% of crimes involving a shooting are perpetrated by blacks, while 1.8% by whites. Now you can say the system is unfairly balanced in favor of whites and that somehow those stats could change somewhat in a perfect system. You can not say however, that blacks still wouldn't account for a vast majority of violent and shooting crimes. Again I'm not ignoring that blacks are unfairly treated some of the time but in a vast majority of cases they are simply committing more of the crime thus causing the Police to focus more heavily on the black population.

I'm all for reasonable reforms, I really hope they adopt the body cams being mandatory on every officer all the time. It reduces criminal behavior once Officers are involved and it reduces the very small minority of officers who do indeed violate people's rights. That however will not fix the overall problem, black youth commit crimes in larger numbers then others and will encounter Police more often then others.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I don't think blacks are inferior, but I do think that American culture plays a huge part in propagating a violent black youth[...]

Fixed that for you.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You can't refute his stats though. Blacks are much more likely to commit crimes in New York, so they're going to get shot more.

Actually, his stats are refutable because they don't relate to commission of crimes. Blacks are far more likely to be caught committing crimes, but that is just as likely a result of differences in enforcement as it is incidence of law breaking.

Examine the results of the NYPD 'stop and frisk' program. The vast majority of people subjected to stop and frisk were people of color, so the vast majority of resulting contraband busts were people of color. You might conclude from this that the program was appropriately administered in that it caught all those colored people carrying contraband.

But the sad truth is that in the small percentage where a white person was stopped and frisked there was a much higher incidence of finding contraband...so what the program actually demonstrated is that white people were more likely to be committing the crime of carrying contraband, but far less likely to be caught at it. Had the program been administered fairly instead of targeting people of color it would have netted far more contraband busts for the same number of stops.

 

[Gary Childress]

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/dataRestriction_inj.html

To a couple of the posts above this one. I of course expect that when an officer uses deadly force that he was justified in it, thats one of the things we pay them for. We expect them to use deadly force only when appropriate, we spend hundreds of millions of dolllars across the nation to ensure they are properly trained in all facets of their job. I expect that if I see on the news that someone was shot by the Police that the Police Officer involved used that training prior to pulling the trigger. When there are cases where they did not, I expect the legal system to handle it as needed.

Now to the stats, if we take a look we can see that whites were indeed killed in higher numbers then blacks but proportionally to their number in the population blacks have a higher percentage rate of death by Police. Continuing with that thought why is that you ask? Blacks have a significantly higher rate of crime then whites or any other race.

Lets take a look at one area of the country for instance. New York City.
Black Population: 23%
White Population: 35%
Crime in the City
Black shooting involved crimes: 80%
White shooting involved crimes: 1.8%

These stats albeit only a single area of the country represent a broader problem because in most urban areas Blacks are 2/3rds more likely to be involved in crime then any other ethnicity.

Why I ask myself would Blacks be shot by Police more often then Whites or any other ethnicity?

Thanks for the link. I did a query and came up with the following data (note the data is for 17 states):

http://wisqars.cdc.gov:8080/nvdrs/nvdrsDisplay.jsp

 

[Archbob]

They may be more likely to be caught, but you can't say that makes up for the 40:1 or 80:1 difference. You can't get around the fact that they are more likely to committ crimes. Be the reason social-economic or culture or whatever.

And the thing with "American Culture" you mention. A large part of that is black culture in the United States. Stephen A Smith(famous black sportscaster) makes a very good point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovPQnc6CYgY

He's a very intelligent man.

 

[Old Hippy]

You can't refute his stats though. Blacks are much more likely to commit crimes in New York, so they're going to get shot more.

thats the problem, NY has a clearance rate of murders of about 56%( one of the better clearance rates, due to extra resouces, robbery can be about 30% in the US) yet these stats say blacks commit 80% of shooting crimes so with just under half of the murders unsolved, close to 70% of robberies unsolved, the perception is that blacks will most likely be responsible for voilent crimes especially shooting crime. while whites are nearlly never responsible...

conviction rates do not reflect with any degree of confidence the race of fellons when only 56% or 30% of cases are solved they are just a wild speculation, and answer C's question
" Why I ask myself would Blacks be shot by Police more often then Whites or any other ethnicity?"

because starting off with a bias understanding of the stats, could/might lead to a bias expectation and perception of what to expect when dealing with certain people

 

[Gary Childress]

DELETED for now until I can find stats per 100,000 instead of simple numbers.

 

[Colonel]

Actually, his stats are refutable because they don't relate to commission of crimes. Blacks are far more likely to be caught committing crimes, but that is just as likely a result of differences in enforcement as it is incidence of law breaking.

Examine the results of the NYPD 'stop and frisk' program. The vast majority of people subjected to stop and frisk were people of color, so the vast majority of resulting contraband busts were people of color. You might conclude from this that the program was appropriately administered in that it caught all those colored people carrying contraband.

But the sad truth is that in the small percentage where a white person was stopped and frisked there was a much higher incidence of finding contraband...so what the program actually demonstrated is that white people were more likely to be committing the crime of carrying contraband, but far less likely to be caught at it. Had the program been administered fairly instead of targeting people of color it would have netted far more contraband busts for the same number of stops.

I ceded that more then likely the numbers would adjust if we had a perfect system where it was always applied equally but that wouldn't change the fact that blacks would still account percentage wise for a much higher instance of crime. Also noting that violent crimes have a higher chance of being solved so that pushes the stat to even more accuracy. Never mind that people trust polling data and its usually correct, +/- a couple percentage points the same holds true for crime, the stats are more then likely fairly accurate to who commits more crime.

Gary --> Your stats aren't adjusted for population difference, percentage and proportionally blacks are more likely to commit crime. By sheer numbers whites commit more crime however a white person is far less likely to commit crime by percentages. Also, those stats are based upon entire states, most rural areas tend to be predominantly white so the only criminals can be white. Now most cities have a decent distribution between white/black/other.

 

[Old Hippy]

Garry here are the clearance rates from the FBI, your chart though good ignores a lot of crimes that are commited, ie no arrest made, so any projections to a populations race have an inbuilt guess or bias like any stat that does not have most of the information

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/clearances

 

[warpus]

My conclusions after looking at the data Gary posted: African Americans seem to have their booze under control. White Americans on the other hand seem to have huge alcohol problems. What's to blame is probably white culture, which encourages drinking.

 

[Gary Childress]

Garry here are the clearance rates from the FBI, your chart though good ignores a lot of crimes that are commited, ie no arrest made, so any projections to a populations race have an inbuilt guess or bias like any stat that does not have most of the information

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/clearances

Sorry Grraffito, Those are the best stats I have found on the matter so far. Your tables on "clearances" don't have any data on race so I'm not sure what you are getting at other than to say that it is a possibility that the racial breakdown of actual offenders may be different from that of who was initially arrested for the offenses (or whatever "arrests" means). That is certainly a possibility but we apparently don't have a "God's eye" perspective right now since the FBI doesn't seem to keep very good data on the topic of race and crime to begin with.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

They may be more likely to be caught, but you can't say that makes up for the 40:1 or 80:1 difference. You can't get around the fact that they are more likely to committ crimes. Be the reason social-economic or culture or whatever.

And the thing with "American Culture" you mention. A large part of that is black culture in the United States. Stephen A Smith(famous black sportscaster) makes a very good point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovPQnc6CYgY

He's a very intelligent man.

Loved it. I'd never say that the whole shebang is caused by one factor and one factor alone, there is definitely a large tangle of problems at work simultaneously on this subject, but one of the big ones is definitely what Mr. Smith is talking about in this video. Among poor African American communities, there seems to exist a culture that vilifies trying to better your station in life. Kind of a crab mentality thing where when anyone tries to raise themselves up, they get harangued by their own people as a sellout or traitor or whatever. That's a big problem. Personally I would love to see more successful African Americans, especially those that are successful in academic endeavors instead of athletics, speaking out against this mentality. The only way this gets better is if those poor communities start placing more emphasis on education and, crucially, keeping a family together that can facilitate their children's education.

 

[Berzerker]

somebody drew a gun on the cops and didn't get off any shots before they responded with 3 shots?

 

[Old Hippy]

Sorry Grraffito, Those are the best stats I have found on the matter so far. Your tables on "clearances" don't have any data on race so I'm not sure what you are getting at other than to say that it is a possibility that the racial breakdown of actual offenders may be different from that of who was initially arrested for the offenses (or whatever "arrests" means). That is certainly a possibility but we apparently don't have a "God's eye" perspective right now since the FBI doesn't seem to keep very good data on the topic of race and crime to begin with.

I was saying clearance rates tell us nothing except clearance rates

same with conviction rates, the tell us nothing about the 86% of burgularies that go unsolved...
now all stats are probally of use to someone somewhere at sometime, but

Crime in the City
Black shooting involved crimes: 80%
White shooting involved crimes: 1.8%

it is probally not a good idea to believe this stat for a cop running down a dark alley at night after someone, because it will be part of their bias in dealing with the other person there, be they black or white...

because they simply do not know what has happaned in close to 50% of past cases..

 

[Paul in Saudi]

The Saint Louis Tourism Board is having a rough 2014.

 

[sophie]

And the thing with "American Culture" you mention. A large part of that is black culture in the United States. Stephen A Smith(famous black sportscaster) makes a very good point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovPQnc6CYgY

He's a very intelligent man.