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[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    Inca and Mali for sure. Those two regions have to be represented before Carthage or any of those type of civilizations. I still think the odds of Ottomans are high. Although they may opt for Ethiopia to cover East Africa instead of West Africa. Sub Saharan Africa pick and South America pick are pretty much guaranteed. And I expect another Middle Eastern Civ (Ottomans) as well.
     
  2. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    I'm just betting against Africa because 2 of the DLCs included African civs, so from a "big picture" overview they probably won't go back to that well yet.

    Again though, it depends on if they plan post-RF DLC. Because if they DO, Mali, Zulu, Ethiopia, and Carthage as a 4-pack "African Empires" pack would be a killer seller. If they're not, then do all 4 wait for xpac2?
     
  3. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    Nubia and?
     
  4. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    Apologies, I for some reason included Kongo as a DLC civ. Rather than edit my post, I'll just own the egg on my face :D
     
  5. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

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    Well... I wonder if Carthage can be counted as a fully African Civ. Sure, it was located in Africa, but on the other hand, it was founded by Phoenicians. Phoenicians were from Phoenicia, and that lies in the Middle East...
     
  6. evanaurora

    evanaurora Chieftain

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    Two??? Nubia and... which am I forgetting?? (by the way, just to contrast, we've had in DLC: two European civs, a European scenario, one postcolonial civ in the Pacific representing European settlers, two SE Asia civs, and one Middle Eastern civ. And the base game was already entirely Europe-heavy.)

    Anyway I think this line of logic may have been present in the decision making process-- but it's still horrifying. two-- TWO African civs. (Egypt only half-counts as a Hellenistic version of itself.) If Carthage is the "African" civ, it'll be yet another outside holding. If nothing from Africa is included at all, because gosh darn it Nubia was plenty of attention to that entire continent.... that's just. Appalling.

    Ugh, I'm already getting worked up about this, and it's so premature!! Especially because whatever's in the pack is in the pack. But honestly....
     
  7. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Ethnically, no. However, Carthage, at least allegedly, was founded in 814 BC. So, they were in Africa for a very long time. 668 years to be exact until the destruction of the city of Carthage in 146 BC.

    So, I’d say they qualify as an African Civ.

    Would like to see the Zulu, a West African Civ and Ethiopia, as well. That’d be 7 for the continent. (Egypt, Nubia, Kongo, Carthage, Zulu, West African Civ and Ethiopia)
     
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  8. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I like to consider them Mediterranean since they were more about the sea than the land.
     
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  9. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    Not to mention they certainly mixed with native Africans. IIRC, e.g., Hannibal was possibly ethnically African.
     
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  10. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Warlord

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    Yeah right or wrong in my mind I split out classical "Mediterrranean" civs from the rest of Europe, Africa, ME.
     
  11. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Indeed. There is coinage bearing his image and he looks distinctly African.

    http://www.blackhistoryheroes.com/2012/07/hannibal-barca-of-carthage-north-africa.html

    To be fair, the website is somewhat biased but the coin is an actual item.

    Archeological excavations also reveal an interesting picture:

    The anthropological examination of skeletons found in tombs in Carthage proves that there is no racial unity [...] The so called Semitic type, characterized by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not been found in Carthage. On the other hand, another cranial form, with a fairly short face, prominent parietal bumps, farther forward and lower down than is usual is common [...] most of the Punic population in Carthage had African and even Negro ancestors" (Daily Life in Carthage at the Time of Hannibal, Charles Picard)
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  12. Ondolindë

    Ondolindë Chieftain

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    :eek::(:nono::eek::(:aargh::wallbash::thumbsdown::trouble::D
     
  13. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    I'd prefer Korea offer something like celadon and songpyeon, which is a traditional celebration food.

    The commoners certainly mixed with Berbers, but there's definitely evidence that the elite preferred to keep to themselves, much like the Ptolemies in Egypt or the European nobility. It's worth remembering that the native people of the area around Carthage were Berbers, who are still Mediterranean, not black Subsaharan Africans. The Romans also didn't see the Carthaginians as looking strikingly different from other peoples of the Mediterranean (which is still no evidence for or against intermarriage with Berbers, of course).
     
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  14. sonicmyst

    sonicmyst Chieftain

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    I will still stick on my prediction of 1 African civ, 1 South American, 1 European and 1 Middle Eastern civs for the remaining FLs.
     
  15. pgm123

    pgm123 Chieftain

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    Just curious, how can you tell that's a coin of Hannibal Barca? Googling it says that it is a depiction of the Phoenician god Melqart, but there seem to be much more Levantine depictions of Melqart on coins as well. I'm not 100% sure why Hannibal would appear on Carthaginian coins at all.
     
  16. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    I do hope Korea does not offer Kimchi.

    While they did ferment vegetables in the time period of the three kingdoms, it wouldn’t have been anything like the version of Kimchi that we are all familiar with. Chilli peppers were introduced by the Portuguese in the 17th Century.

    Celadon originated in China so I am not sure that would be appropriate, either.

    Songpyeon would work. It’s delicious and commonly eaten at Chuseok, the Korean version of Thanksgiving.
     
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  17. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Most things originated in China. :p But the Chinese agree that it was the Koreans who perfected celadon. That would be much later than Seondeok, though; I hadn't considered that.
     
  18. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Scholars seem to be divided on the issue. Some say it is Hannibal and others say it is a diety.

    It would be interesting to have the Cartheginians worshipping an obviously negroid diety, however. That would indicate something in regards to racial relations and identity, that’s for sure.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  19. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Historical records talk about the quality of Korean celadon in the Goryeo dynasty period which was much later than the three kingdom period, yeah. I suppose if the Korean leader was from a later period, it might be appropriate.
     
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  20. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    Yet Jayavarman VII offered fried spiders. Frying batter did not exist in Khmer territory during his time.
     

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