[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Vader is Luke's father.
Harry is a horcrux.
The T-800 is a good guy in Terminator 2.
The alien in Cloverfield looks like a waterbug.
Luke dies.
Snape kills Dumbledore.
Rosebud is a sled.
It's a cookbook.
He was on Earth the whole time.

Sean Bean dies in...[insert film/ T.V. show/computer game trailer here]

 

[luigilime]

so we have 4 never seen before civs and 4 returning in this expansion, is this going to be the pattern?

 

[shaglio]

Luke dies.

Thanks. I still haven't had the chance to see The Last Jedi yet

 

[AvianBritish]

I had high hopes for Mapuche being a nice cultural Civ. ...but to me they are another Warmongering Civ like Tomyris; just with an interesting loyalty and anti-golden age mechanic.

This means we have:
Korea with great Science with bonuses to food, culture and an ok field cannon replacement (25% warmongery - turtle peacefully)
Netherlands with great river yields, a fickle and I fear useless Polder, trade route bonuses and then the Sieging warship (>25% warmongery - *can* take coastal cities, but otherwise be peaceful)
Mongolia with bonuses in combat against civs with intrigue, bonuses fighting with cavalry and capturing cavalry, bonus movement to cavalry, knight archer unit (100% warmongery - war everyone)
Chandragupta (India) has food, faith and housing, religious bonuses, sapping Varu unit and a warmongering neighbour leader ability (>50% warmongery - war your neighbours)
Cree with trade and trade route bonuses, alliance bonuses, food and housing bonuses and a powerful (survivable) scout replacement (<25% warmongery - be an ally and stay peaceful)
Georgia with walls unique building, an "additional" swordsman, bonus to chain golden ages and bonuses to faith and protecting city states and sending envoys to them (turtle peacefully)
Scotland with bonuses for being happy, a unique (but restrictive...) tile improvement for more happiness, unique ranger replacement which is still essentially a scout at this point. And gets a great war of Liberation bonus; but it's Liberation rather then flat out warmongering (<50% warmongery - liberate cities from warmongers)
Mapuche with bonuses to unit experience, combat against civs in golden ages, able to reduce loyalty from defeating units offensively, a raiding cavalry unit and then a culture unique tile improvement, this Civ is geared to going to war with the only redeaing factor is their tile improvement (>75% warmongery - war everyone, especially those in golden ages)
Zulu will no doubt be 75% or 100% warmongery with Shaka's combat based ability (inevitably), unique Encampment, a unique unit (so everyone is at least 25% because of this) with the only saving factor is the Zulu ability which might be a bit more peaceful and relate to cattle or something?

But otherwise with Mongolia, Chandragupta, Mapuche and Zulu in the same expansion... that's 4 out of 9 Leaders which are all geared to an offensive war... not overly impressed. I'm fine with Tamar and Robert's abilities, which literally justifies your case for war (Chandragupta doesn't count, because there is a difference between territorial expansion and protecting/liberating.)

I'm fine with Persia/Cyrus, in fact Persia/Cyrus is one of my 5 favourite Civs to play as. I love the fact that Persia is entirely peaceful and then Cyrus gives it a little bit of warmongering flavour; but not over doing it by doubling down on every single aspect of war/combat like Macedon and Mongolia... or to a slightly lesser extent like Scythia and Mapuche.

 

[pgm123]

Thanks. I still haven't had the chance to see The Last Jedi yet

Spoiler, for something else.

But you should see Last Jedi. Not a perfect movie by any stretch, but it was worth the time and money investment.

 

[ferretbacon]

Thanks. I still haven't had the chance to see The Last Jedi yet

I wouldn't bother.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I wouldn't bother.

I'd call it maybe the 3rd-4th best one, actually. I understand the reasons why people don't like the new one but I disagree with them.

 

[Phrozen]

Mapuche are a defensive civ with some teeth. They are kind of the opposite of Ethiopia in Civ V. Ethiopia punished you if you invaded their territory. The Mapuche will destroy your infrastructure and loyalty if you declare war on them. You aren't safe if you are in a golden age either.

 

[shaglio]

Spoiler, for something else.

But you should see Last Jedi. Not a perfect movie by any stretch, but it was worth the time and money investment.

Oh good. I was racking my brain trying to think of another Luke it could have been, but I gave up and figured it had to be TLJ. I haven't seen Cool Hand Luke since senior year of high school . . . which was 26 years ago. Over a quarter of a century! I need to go lay down.

 

[ferretbacon]

I'd call it maybe the 3rd-4th best one, actually. I understand the reasons why people don't like the new one but I disagree with them.

It's divisive. I'd place it last. TFA wasn't very good and TLJ has pretty much killed my enthusiasm for the sequel trilogy.

Edit: I should admit that TLJ was visually slick and had better acting than any prequel film, but the writing, pacing, and plot were abysmal. Some of the things that happened in the film were also universe-breaking.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Didn't Sarah say (in last week's livestream) they are going to do a loyalty livestream this week?

 

[Giskler]

Didn't Sarah say (in last week's livestream) they are going to do a loyalty livestream this week?

Pretty sure she did.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

It's divisive. I'd place it last. TFA wasn't very good and TLJ has pretty much killed my enthusiasm for the sequel trilogy.

Edit: I should admit that TLJ was visually slick and had better acting than any prequel film, but the writing, pacing, and plot were abysmal. Some of the things that happened in the film were also universe-breaking.

Well, if you want to keep your childhood I wouldn't compare the dialogue with any of the original three (until Carrie Fisher started script-doctoring some of Lucas' terrible lines). There were some plot issues but nothing that wasn't also present in most of the others.

The "universe" issues some saw were what made a lot of people hate it, but they're also the reasons why I liked it so much.

But past all that, really, worse than Phantom Menace?

 

[Leyrann]

Eh, I was mostly annoyed at how blatantly all basic rules regarding space were ignored once again.

 

[ferretbacon]

Well, if you want to keep your childhood I wouldn't compare the dialogue with any of the original three (until Carrie Fisher started script-doctoring some of Lucas' terrible lines). There were some plot issues but nothing that wasn't also present in most of the others.

The "universe" issues some saw were what made a lot of people hate it, but they're also the reasons why I liked it so much.

But past all that, really, worse than Phantom Menace?

Guess we better stop being so off-topic after this, but yeah, I like Phantom Menace more despite all of its problems (rest-assured, though, it's quite far down the list too). Star Wars is all pretty cheesy though if you take off the rose-tinted glasses. While the sequel trilogy seems like a pile of dung, maybe the anthology films will continue to be good (Rogue One had its issues, but man oh man that final 1/3 of the film made me forget all about them).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Didn't Sarah say (in last week's livestream) they are going to do a loyalty livestream this week?

But the Mapuche deal with loyalty. They haven't done a livestream with a Civ that has the same bonuses.
What if we get a teaser tomorrow. Then we get a First Look on Thursday and then they announce they're playing Shaka for the livestream the same day.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Guess we better stop being so off-topic after this, but yeah, I like Phantom Menace more despite all of its problems (rest-assured, though, it's quite far down the list too). Star Wars is all pretty cheesy though if you take off the rose-tinted glasses. While the sequel trilogy seems like a pile of dung, maybe the anthology films will continue to be good (Rogue One had its issues, but man oh man that final 1/3 of the film made me forget all about them).

Yeah I put rogue one after Star Wars (still refuse to call it Episode 4 haha) and Empire but before Jedi. The prequels are are good example of what happens whenever one person gets so much creative power that nobody that can offer criticism, haha.

But anyhow, as you said we're diverging a bit. I'm still excited about the "new guys," perhaps more than the past few reveals.

 

[ferretbacon]

Yeah I put rogue one after Star Wars (still refuse to call it Episode 4 haha) and Empire but before Jedi. The prequels are are good example of what happens whenever one person gets so much creative power that nobody that can offer criticism, haha.

But anyhow, as you said we're diverging a bit. I'm still excited about the "new guys," perhaps more than the past few reveals.

R&F is the most darkhorse-heavy expansion ever. Georgia, Scotland, and Mapuche? They're all pretty out there. I don't really count the Cree since I fully expected there would be a North American native tribe; Firaxis may use the Iroquois more consistently than any other tribe, but that spot has always rotated a bit.

 

[Guandao]

R&F is the most darkhorse-heavy expansion ever. Georgia, Scotland, and Mapuche? They're all pretty out there. I don't really count the Cree since I fully expected there would be a North American native tribe; Firaxis may use the Iroquois more consistently than any other tribe, but that spot has always rotated a bit.

In a way, Scotland can be considered a "replacement" for the Celts. In other ways, it's not.

What about Brave New World for Civ5? Were Venice, Assyria, Brazil, Shoshone, Morocco, and Indonesia dark horses at that time?

 

[ferretbacon]

In a way, Scotland can be considered a "replacement" for the Celts. In other ways, it's not.

What about Brave New World for Civ5? Were Venice, Assyria, Brazil, Shoshone, Morocco, and Indonesia dark horses at that time?

That's true, though Brazil and Indonesia didn't feel like dark horses - more like long overdue inclusions. The Shoshone struck me as an alt-Sioux, kind of in the same boat as the Cree/Iroquois.

Venice, Assyria, and Morocco were all pretty surprising.