[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Thormodr]

I feel like emergencies in general were a mistake. Judging from the majority of people's comments on them, they don't seem to work anything like the way Firaxis intended for them to function based on how they were described prior to release. Its really easy to determine which ones can be manipulated to earn the player lump sums of gold, and which ones should just be outright rejected to save on hassle. It seems to be a roulette wheel as to whether the AI will actually bother to join in and help out, they cause all sorts of weird diplomatic consequences on top of the pre-existing tics the AI has from vanilla. They don't even appear to work very well as a way to unite the AI against a human player who's running away with the game if that was Firaxis's intent too.

On one hand I think I'd be totally ok with it if they just outright said "Sorry guys, this mechanic really didn't work out how we hoped it would" and removed them from the game, on the other they did advertise them as a feature of the expansion so we are kind of stuck with them now...

Disagree. Emergencies, well at least the X City was conquered ones, are good. Other emergencies do need to be reworked and refined but I think they definitely on to something.

In Civilization 5 City States were introduced and for a long time they were just vending machines that bought you a diplomatic victory. They were terrible. I am glad they retained them, though, as they are useful and the potential for them is great.

 

[Katakanja]

Disagree. Emergencies, well at least the X City was conquered ones, are good. Other emergencies do need to be reworked and refined but I think they definitely on to something.

In Civilization 5 City States were introduced and for a long time they were just vending machines that bought you a diplomatic victory. They were terrible. I am glad they retained them, though, as they are useful and the potential for them is great.

I mean, I hope they can find a way to improve on them if it's possible. They just stick out like a sore thumb as something extremely gamey in an expansion that is otherwise very roleplay focused as others have been noting. I just get this lingering feeling that there's something really... half-baked about them. Its like Anton wanted to introduce a more complex new diplo system as one of the R&F features but Ed overruled him since he's spoken about wanting to refine the world congress in the past and has his own ideas he wants to implement for the next expansion, so in the end Anton had to settle for a more stripped down mechanic.

Comparing them to vanilla Civ V CS's.... yeah I see what you mean. That's exactly it The only downside is that it took them more or less the full lifespan of Civ V to get them to an interesting place, so it might take as much iterating on the Emergencies to achieve the same results

 

[Thormodr]

I mean, I hope they can find a way to improve on them if it's possible. They just stick out like a sore thumb as something extremely gamey in an expansion that is otherwise very roleplay focused as others have been noting. I just get this lingering feeling that there's something really... half-baked about them. Its like Anton wanted to introduce a more complex new diplo system as one of the R&F features but Ed overruled him since he's spoken about wanting to refine the world congress in the past and has his own ideas he wants to implement for the next expansion, so in the end Anton had to settle for a more stripped down mechanic.

Comparing them to vanilla Civ V CS's.... yeah I see what you mean. That's exactly it The only downside is that it took them more or less the full lifespan of Civ V to get them to an interesting place, so it might take as much iterating on the Emergencies to achieve the same results

It may take a while, yes. However, the community here is great and I can definitely envision some mods that will use the mechanic. Not to mention some fun scenarios.

 

[TomKQT]

I still don’t understand religious combat. I attack someone and it’s a minor defeat for me, he turns around and battle bolts me and it’s a major victory for me....wat

Inquisitors are much weaker out of your territory, so you could be standing inside your territory on the border tile and he outside. So your attack was to the outside and his to the inside.
And I also think that inquisitors have bonus on defence, but I am not sure.

 

[Mojo85]

It was apostle vs apostle, haven't seen an inquisitor yet in this game now that you mention it

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Perhaps the civ that is focus of an emergency should not get a reward.

 

[Thormodr]

Perhaps the civ that is focus of an emergency should not get a reward.

Yes. The city state they conquered, for example, is reward enough.

 

[Klinn]

I kind of wish I would see other civs' Historic Moments, or at least their significant ones.

Good idea and it might be cool to expand that into an end-game screen.

A row for each civ with their successes spread along the horizontal time line. Maybe shrink the extra-big graphics so we wouldn't have to scroll vertically too much while checking out the other civs. Sort by how long a civ stayed in the game, i.e. the shorter-lived ones would be at the bottom and drop off the list sooner.

It would be kind of a summary of how the world as a whole progressed.

 

[Disgustipated]

Anyone seeing Scotland be super powerful in their games? I'm playing as Korea and I'm still having trouble passing them in science. Their score is over 200 points above me and I don't see how. I haven't fully explored them yet, they are pretty far away. An attack may not be feasible. My last game they were in they were also quite advanced (though the Mapuche were more dominant). This is King difficulty, so they shouldn't be getting that much advantage over me, I think it's only 5% at King.

Not sure the best way to deal with them. I could attack, but I think I can out tech them and get space victory, assuming they can't get a cultural victory. I'll try to beat them peacefully and see how it turns out.

 

[Giskler]

Anyone seeing Scotland be super powerful in their games? I'm playing as Korea and I'm still having trouble passing them in science. Their score is over 200 points above me and I don't see how. I haven't fully explored them yet, they are pretty far away. An attack may not be feasible. My last game they were in they were also quite advanced (though the Mapuche were more dominant). This is King difficulty, so they shouldn't be getting that much advantage over me, I think it's only 5% at King.

Not sure the best way to deal with them. I could attack, but I think I can out tech them and get space victory, assuming they can't get a cultural victory. I'll try to beat them peacefully and see how it turns out.

Scotland is the most powerful civ in the game currently. If you let them grow, you'll struggle to keep up.

 

[Ferocitus]

Scotland is the most powerful civ in the game currently. If you let them grow, you'll struggle to keep up.

You have to pay them a visit and stomp on their campuses.
Of course, on very large maps that's easier said than done
when they could be many dozens of turns away from you.

 

[Disgustipated]

I'm thinking Scotland is the new Kongo. Imagine playing them, Kongo and Korea.

In fact, I'll do that next game.

 

[Leyrann]

It was apostle vs apostle, haven't seen an inquisitor yet in this game now that you mention it

Were you next to a Holy Site? Defenders get bonus strengh next to and on a Holy Site, so if you're even when attacking you have a big advantage when defending.

Anyone seeing Scotland be super powerful in their games? I'm playing as Korea and I'm still having trouble passing them in science. Their score is over 200 points above me and I don't see how. I haven't fully explored them yet, they are pretty far away. An attack may not be feasible. My last game they were in they were also quite advanced (though the Mapuche were more dominant). This is King difficulty, so they shouldn't be getting that much advantage over me, I think it's only 5% at King.

Not sure the best way to deal with them. I could attack, but I think I can out tech them and get space victory, assuming they can't get a cultural victory. I'll try to beat them peacefully and see how it turns out.

I don't know, in my game they're not really ahead, but they were boxed in by seas on one side, Australia on the other, and they lost some cities to the Sumerians at their last border (though they've later flipped those back when Sumeria started stringing two or three Dark Ages together).

 

[Duuk]

Weirdly I've seen Scotland conquered by AI enemies 3-4 games in a row.

 

[Cerilis]

Weirdly I've seen Scotland conquered by AI enemies 3-4 games in a row.

So the AI also knows how dangerous they are.

 

[Katakanja]

I've seen Scotland twice and had one game where they were the most powerful AI civ and the other where they got trapped in a corner and had their cities flip to Brazil one by one. I think their effectiveness in the hands of the AI depends on whether they start off with access to a diverse supply of luxes or not - If they can get their cities ecstatic fast then they'll get a stranglehold on GS points and reap the benefits. Conversely in the game where they were eliminated via flipping, their little corner was fairly meh resource wise and Korea was also present in the game and seemed to be able to easily out-perform them in GS points.

 

[Disgustipated]

Finally get a chance to load my game. It isn't as bad as I feared. Robert the Bruce is at 72 science per turn at 27 techs researched, and I'm at 110.9 science per turn at 28 techs researched.

I'm not concerned about tech at this point, but I'm worried about losing to cultural victory. He's at 106 culture per turn and already has a good deal of tourists, and I'm at 48.5. I'll be building a lot of theater squares shortly, hopefully it's not too late.

 

[KyivanRusCivPlease]

I have noticed the two historic moments listed in Wikipedia giving 0 era score (Battle Fought and Ship Sunk) actually don't appear in-game. What are they for in Wikipedia?

 

[Katakanja]

I have noticed the two historic moments listed in Wikipedia giving 0 era score (Battle Fought and Ship Sunk) actually don't appear in-game. What are they for in Wikipedia?

Could they be some kind of trigger for generating archaeology sites and shipwrecks that occur behind the scenes and aren't meant to be seen by the player perhaps?

 

[Cerilis]

I have noticed the two historic moments listed in Wikipedia giving 0 era score (Battle Fought and Ship Sunk) actually don't appear in-game. What are they for in Wikipedia?

Sounds like it has something to do with the Great General/Admiral historic moments.