'Rising Tide' expansion announced!

[Gort]

Even taking that into consideration I highly doubt that anyone except the top 2% or so of players could say Apollo difficulty was easy for them at launch.

Anyone who could reliably beat Emperor in Civ 5 could beat the release version of Beyond Earth on Apollo difficulty on their first go.

 

[PhilBowles]

I wonder how they are going to make diplomacy interesting: there is nothing you can trade with other nations.

In Civ4 diplomacy was great because you had so many resources to trade: food resources (+health, extra bonuses for different types), luxury (including 3 that were produced by special Wonders) and strategic resources, technologies, maps, etc. Plus there was a UN.

That was all basically gloss, though - fundamentally the system had the same weakness as other 4x diplomacy: it's just a trade screen. It's only relevant to gameplay while the other side has something valuable to trade, and making gameable bonuses like techs tradeable as a way to make diplomacy relevant is not a route we should want to go down (BE already does that more than Civ V, with the ability to trade research per turn for nothing). It sounds as though the BE developers want to try a different route altogether - which is laudable, but since it's something that's defeated every 4x developer for over two decades, I'm at best cautious that they can actually pull it off.

 

[thecrazyscot]

Anyone who could reliably beat Emperor in Civ 5 could beat the release version of Beyond Earth on Apollo difficulty on their first go.

To be fair, that's not actually that many players.

 

[iki]

To be fair, that's not actually that many players.

It honestly depends on your strategy ramp up your techs to Gunpowder, or just play on a small map and rush swordsman it tended to work for me but then again I'm not usually interested in achievements unless they unlock something so long games on (king I think it is) difficulty is usually how I play.

But BE seems easier I guess or the AI is more stupid.

 

[Gort]

To be fair, that's not actually that many players.

On the other hand, I'm at the point where I can reliably beat Emperor after hundreds of hours of gameplay and a fair bit of reading on strategy boards. To beat a game on its hardest difficulty level with nothing but a couple of marketing videos worth of research is a different beast entirely.

 

[Endar]

Another bad thing in BE is that there is no need to fight with others: penalties for having many cities are so severe (health), that there is no reason to have more cities than some optimal number.

I remember on the big map even by the late game there were huge areas of good land that were not settled by anybody.

Turtling is THE strategy. Boring (

While the AI is certainly incompetent, struggles when confronted with a lack of space and can be baited into wonderfully-dumb suicide attacks . . . if you're winning with 500% casualty rate disparities, I suggest upping the difficulty level.

And if you're getting those casualty ratios on Apollo, I definitely recommend uploading some VODs - more helpful tips for the rest of us, especially those that are more warmongering than Science-rushing.

Soyuz.
Just dig in your infantry on forest hill and decimate incoming hostile dummies by artillery fire. Rotate your troops if they have too many casualties.

Obviously you want to be protected by natural features - mountains or canyons. The AI is too dumb to attack from different direction - it takes the shortest root from his cities to yours.

 

[iki]

Some people say the optimum number is 4 but I've never really found health a problem. I've had 20 cities and still had 30 health. Often it's easier to have more cities, so I can ramp up production or have valuable resources. And I've gone to war to prevent the ai from having them as they never trade fairly.

 

[lilgamefreek]

Health is kinda weird in BE. Unlike Civ5, you don't have things equivalent to luxuries that just give you flat health that allow you to really grow fast in the early game. The closest is tunneling down Prosperity super quick to grab what health bonuses you can. However, in BE each citizen can potentially generate +1 health but only maximally generate 0.75 unhealth (not certain of this number I know it's less than one), so as cities grow taller, you get a net profit of health so long as you can supply the city with enough buildings, biowells, etc. This is different from Civ5 as citizen happiness to unhappiness was straight 1-1 unless you could grab Forbidden Palace, I think. So where as in Civ5, the number of cities was generally limited by scarce outside sources of happiness while you did your best to maintain equilibrium within your city, in BE, your city count is only limited by how effectively you can generate more Health than necessary in your existing cities.

 

[Ryika]

Some people say the optimum number is 4 but I've never really found health a problem. I've had 20 cities and still had 30 health. Often it's easier to have more cities, so I can ramp up production or have valuable resources. And I've gone to war to prevent the ai from having them as they never trade fairly.

Not sure who said the optimum number is 4, but he either has found some insane trick, or he's just... well, wrong. ^^ When the strategy forums were still used, people were pretty much saying that 6-7 self-found cities are ideal (when using Artists). When going wide (with Pioneers) I'd say 9-10 cities is really the maximum you can get without hitting -20 health, which is when things become rather inefficient.

On the long run, health will no longer be a problem, but as the game is very short when playing for efficiency it's usually not worth it building cities later in the game.

 

[Acken]

Which is rather the same problem Civ5 has. Ideologies allow you to expand further and they clearly were designed as such (with order giving pop for new cities) but then the game is finished in 50turns :/

 

[bite]

For me (and only for me as these are entirely subjective feeling on my part which may or may not align with your own feelings) these are the area's that I would really like to see worked on/improved/tweaked/whatever-ed in the expansion.

1) Diplomacy - BE I feel really showed just how limiting the Civ 5 Diplomacy engine is (and that is even after a lot of work to Diplomacy in the Civ 5 expansions). Playing BE, especially with all the luxuries removed, I just ignored diplomacy where ever possible. Now this is one area that has been confirmed that they have worked on, with the announcement interview stating that the pulled the old system out and put a new one in. On this point I am skeptical that they would build a new system from scratch and I feel the more likely option is a modified version of the Civ 5 one (unless of course we are seeing the trial of the new Civ 6 diplomacy engine).

2) Stations - Stations was something I was really looking forward to when they were first announced as they were originally meant to only trade with one player and there would be a huge bonus after a number of trading missions. This was a cool idea as it forced you to really protect those stations and it could of been a good source of tension in the game. In the end for whatever reason (I assume balance issues) this was not implemented and as such stations were just bland, in fact worse than that, they were an annoyance most of the time.

I really hope they make stations an engaging part of RT because it is getting to the point that I want to play with them turned off.

3) Research Web/Affinities/Victories - We have a research web, no longer is research linear any more. This was such a cool idea, and really fitting of the genre but it soon felt hollow when it was clearly obvious that bar a few deviations it was a linear progression, it just depended which victory you were going for because Victories needed Affinities and Affinities were only got through Techs (and the occasional pre turn 100 quest). This means that there is really cool stuff, but there is really no reason to go for them as they are in bad tech lines.

Outside of decoupling or partially decoupling affinities from the tech web, or decoupling or partially decoupling affinities from victories, I don't know if this can be fixed.

4) Emerson - I loved every one of the press releases written in-character or in universe on the lead up to the release if BE, they presented some really interesting and complex characters and nations. However, when we go to the game there was none of that. They all felt the same, in the end it was a couple of purity players, a couple of supremacy players and a couple of Harmony players, not a Polystralia Harmony play and an ARC supremacy player.

The one thing they dropped which I really think they should have kept is unique buildings/units something to really make you think about which race you chose when you are doing the seeding, something to really make you think ooo Franco-Iberia went Harmony this turn, that means they are going to be different to Polystralia going Harmony. In the end you need to bring out more of what these leaders are, what these civs are. A simple way would be to get the voice actors back and get them to voice any quotes their character makes (tech or wonder quotes) so we can get a better sense of them.

Also use the stations as a way to tell more of the back ground if the BE Universe, at the moment all we have is a name and an interchangeable personality.

5) Wonders - This flows on to a number of other issues, the way they presented the wonders ended up being lack-luster as the perks them selves. When you research the wonder there is a half-wireframe still image and a quote. Yes SMAC did videos, I'm not saying they needed to do that, The still wonder images from Civ 5 were some of them most beautiful art in the whole game. But in BE they don't have any grandeur, they don't fell like wonders, because they are just not wondrous.

Now one part of this is clearly the perks from the Wonders need work (which the first balance pass started to work on but still needed something more). But the other part is that the way they are presented also needs work. You need to feel that you actually are building something wondrous. You didn't have to give this context in Civ 5 because you don't need contextulize The Pyramids, we know what it is, we want to build them because, "Hey I just built the Pyramids", BE does not get that pre-knowladge of the player, so you need to work even harder to provide context, not strip it back more.

 

[edingess]

Well said Bite. I think there especially needs AI work IMHO especially in the air and satellite realms. That and fixing bugs such as the projectile bug.

 

[x2Madda]

-Words were said-

I found myself agreeing with everything you wrote. I guess time constraints are possibly to blame as stations were not the interaction we were told they would be, same for the alien lifeforms and many other facets to the game and I can see the framework is there which gives me hope in the future they can and will expand on these things but then we come to the new systems and those are going to need improvement and fixes too so something has to be cut, right?

I don't ever think aliens will ever go back to their pre-release state of being a serious threat or a helpful ally to live in Harmony with, which for me personally was one of the huge driving factors involved in me purchasing the game.

But the reason I quoted your post is because I certainly share your fears about diplomacy. A whole new diplomacy system? How can they made it something fun and interesting to engage in whilst at the same time preventing it from becoming the new trade routes 'issue' where I am being pestered every 30 turns to renew various deals?

And how is this going to factor into PvP? Favors might have worked in PvP had it been given a chance. The AI being able to make requests that the player cannot (you, player, stop attacking stations, while we, AI, attack them freely) makes me feel like the new diplomacy system is going to be another one sided system where the player can only react, not initiate which makes me hugely skeptical of it.

I want this expansion to be great but I am hugely skeptical and even moreso given that 2 expansions is usually the norm for Civ games and Civ:BE would need at least 3 or it would require the 2nd expansion to add nothing new while tinkering massively under the hood and lets face it, that is never a good way to shift units or win new customers.

The lack of existing patches and the slow pace with which we have received them also makes me uncomfortable.

 

[Gorbles]

One of the patches made Aliens quite a bit more useful with regards to being Friendly (fixing Nests in friendly territory). Modifying the aggression states also helped, I think. They're not quite as one-dimensional as people make them out to be.

I'm all for more variance, but I honestly think that Aliens in BE are more effective at existing as a roadblock and / or a threat than Barbarians ever were, in any Civ.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I'm all for more variance, but I honestly think that Aliens in BE are more effective at existing as a roadblock and / or a threat than Barbarians ever were, in any Civ.

I agree. Barbarians in civ5 are never a threat in my games. They seem to simply serve as a temporary road block to expansion. They are just there so that the player cannot just send out unescorted settlers with impunity and expand too fast. But in BE, I have frequently had games where some areas of the map had so many aliens swarming around that I had to avoid it completely. Plus, siege worms can pillage your improvements. Of course, once the player gets some good military stuff, the aliens are no longer a threat. But I think that is as it should be since technology should make the player much more powerful than the aliens.

 

[Doviello]

I agree. Barbarians in civ5 are never a threat in my games. They seem to simply serve as a temporary road block to expansion. They are just there so that the player cannot just send out unescorted settlers with impunity and expand too fast. But in BE, I have frequently had games where some areas of the map had so many aliens swarming around that I had to avoid it completely. Plus, siege worms can pillage your improvements. Of course, once the player gets some good military stuff, the aliens are no longer a threat. But I think that is as it should be since technology should make the player much more powerful than the aliens.

I had the opposite experience. In civ 5, it's not rare for barbarians to get modern units before i do. It's super common for me to have to juggle longswordmen around against barbarian musketeers (immortal level). In BE, otoh, aliens don't get upgraded as the game plays on, so once you get sufficient affinity upgrades, aliens become a nonfactor. But yeah, areas rich with aliens and miasma are scarier that groups of barbarian camps.

 

[Galgus]

I don't ever think aliens will ever go back to their pre-release state of being a serious threat or a helpful ally to live in Harmony with, which for me personally was one of the huge driving factors involved in me purchasing the game.

It was also a big part of what made me purchase the game, alongside unmet expectations for affinities.

When I heard them talk about Aliens that become dangerous to everyone when angered, I thought it would allow players to anger them to indirectly weaken other colonies.

I was hoping it would give more options for militaristic players than directly knocking colonies out of the game, with Aliens potentially swarming and overrunning cities. (Even without the Ultrasonic Fence, they never do anything like that.)

Back in the day I was hoping to run a protection scheme, offering to protect AI colonies against the Aliens I angered in exchange for some goods.

Making Aliens more of a threat to anger, a risk/ reward option to fight, and an asset to Harmony later would be the quickest way to breathe new life into BE.

 

[x2Madda]

It was also a big part of what made me purchase the game, alongside unmet expectations for affinities.

When I heard them talk about Aliens that become dangerous to everyone when angered, I thought it would allow players to anger them to indirectly weaken other colonies.

I was hoping it would give more options for militaristic players than directly knocking colonies out of the game, with Aliens potentially swarming and overrunning cities. (Even without the Ultrasonic Fence, they never do anything like that.)

Back in the day I was hoping to run a protection scheme, offering to protect AI colonies against the Aliens I angered in exchange for some goods.

Making Aliens more of a threat to anger, a risk/ reward option to fight, and an asset to Harmony later would be the quickest way to breathe new life into BE.

Whie "protectionism" might be very difficult to program into the game, I for one would welcome Harmony being able to do something with the aliens.

The thought of using the aliens to wage a proxy war sounds amazing and their is a mod that allows aliens to attack cities and outposts but even when given the option to do so, aliens rarely attack city tiles or pose a credible threat.

I farm them for science now in my games and only because I am taking that tree anyway as the science quickly tapers off ALA culture from barb kills in Civ5.

 

[Galgus]

Whie "protectionism" might be very difficult to program into the game, I for one would welcome Harmony being able to do something with the aliens.

The thought of using the aliens to wage a proxy war sounds amazing and their is a mod that allows aliens to attack cities and outposts but even when given the option to do so, aliens rarely attack city tiles or pose a credible threat.

I farm them for science now in my games and only because I am taking that tree anyway as the science quickly tapers off ALA culture from barb kills in Civ5.

I could see protectionism take the form of an agreement to both not attack them and to fight Aliens near them, with perhaps their opinion of you changing based on how good of a job you did.

It would be tricky, but I'd love to have the option to ask for and offer protection from Aliens in deals.

Of course, about half of the AIs should probably take the "Stop killing Aliens, it is dangerous/ unethical" route.
____________________

For Harmony my ideal would be mid to late game Aliens swarming the cities of those they are at war with, with their combat capacities upgraded by food-providing trade routes to nests.

If they could be a real threat it would give Harmony a gameplay reason to want Alien populations to thrive and for other Affinities to be concerned about it.
___________________________________________

What mod is that?

In my experience the most threat Aliens pose to cities is the occasional Siege Worm or, in one rare case, two spawning unusually close to one.

Even then it is extremely difficult to anger the Aliens without some mod altering their thresholds - I made one such mod myself in the steam workshop.
____________________________________________________

I'm okay with the boosts for killing Aliens tapering off, but if Aliens were truly more of a threat I'd like to see greater early rewards.

Early Might could become the virtue tree of getting a potential jumpstart for your colony by killing Aliens.

The Energy from destroying nests could be changed to a substantial Food boost in the nearest city, and the Survivalism virtue could similarly give food equal to their combat strength.

Generally I think bonuses requiring active play should outshine passive ones.

The primary cause was Staggered start of the AIs, especially on CD release. (AI bonuses were increased on the first patch for the highest two difficulty levels.)

Basically for the CD release, the AI wasn't getting as much from the stagger bonus as it would have had naturally if they had landed on the same turn the human did.

A secondary cause is that humans are much better at optimizing tech research on the tech web for their chosen victory condition than the AI, but that was already the case for Civ V.

As a Marathon player, I wish the AIs spawned considerably later with more time between with more formidable bonuses.

They seem to all drop in almost consecutively before I've had time for much more than the earliest of exploration ventures.

Imagine if, say, an AI dropped in with a considerable army and a hostile disposition - how that could shake the game up.

 

[iki]

Wait didn't they say there would be an option to switch of standard start?