Rising Tide - First Impressions

Anyone else having an extremely difficult time increasing intrigue in opponents' cities? I'm at turn 140 on Apollo/standard and *just* got a city up to level 1, and that's with the +40% intrigue from might. Was intrigue generation greatly nerfed, or do the AIs just have a crap ton of health?

I haven't had to put a spy in any of my cities to stop intrigue either; I detected operations in my cap a good 40 turns ago and it's still not level 2. And I have negative health, so for me it's definitely not that.
 
It's possible Hybrids are the best way to military units. However afaik you still need 15 in an affinity to get an affinity victory.

With the new experience balance it's utterly trivial to get level 3-4 in the other two affinities. It will likely happen by accident, especially if you're stealing tech.
 
With the new experience balance it's utterly trivial to get level 3-4 in the other two affinities. It will likely happen by accident, especially if you're stealing tech.
Stealing tech by itself is not an efficient strategy (at least it wasn't in BE and I don't see how it would be now - unless there's some way to steal enough to eventually get the techs you want :D) and getting techs that you don't actively need is also an investment that has to have some payout to be worth it.

And I don't think Level 3-4 in an off-affinity is really what people mean when they talk about hybrids. I personally at least think about something Level 6+. ^^
 
I'm very surprised to see people saying the hybrids are pointless - I ended up at Supremacy 5 without even trying when I reached Purity 8, it barely took anything off my existing path to get to 8/8 and the top-tier Autosleds, 60 strength Master Drone Cages and the like, plus they're all on basic tech paths.

Given that the AI now has incredible difficulties putting together a reasonably sized army (I feel like this is because of aquatic cities and it splitting it's focus on units), and that the player can just slap together a handful of basic units (soldiers, rangers, rovers or cruisers, cruisers, patrol boat) and roflstomp the AI (especially in the water) with no issues yes, I would say they're pointless. As with most things in this game it's largely "you CAN do this", "but why on whatever planet this is would you ever want to?"
 
Anyone else having an extremely difficult time increasing intrigue in opponents' cities? I'm at turn 140 on Apollo/standard and *just* got a city up to level 1, and that's with the +40% intrigue from might. Was intrigue generation greatly nerfed, or do the AIs just have a crap ton of health?

I haven't had to put a spy in any of my cities to stop intrigue either; I detected operations in my cap a good 40 turns ago and it's still not level 2. And I have negative health, so for me it's definitely not that.

I have great trouble increasing intrigue in opponents cities too. I can never get above stealing science.
 
I've had some more time to play this evening and am still enthused. In fact I beacame so enthused that I came here to enthuse and had to laugh because of the negativity that's already in this thread.

Maybe I'm simple minded but there's a lot of stuff gone into the basic game design that significantly changes the way I play (Again, maybe I'm just too simplistic) and I really like it.

I like:
how the levelling up of all affinities early to mid game, makes the game feel like it's still open, I'm not being forced to choose yet.

how there are low hanging hybrids just off on a branch which I'm tempted to take - even as I meander rather clumsily towards my beelines (and that's combined nicely with my completely unplanned affinity levelling)

that mid game I'm considering where to place new cities on a number of factors and not solely to bag the floatstone or firaxite - see my first point.

that I can't trade for resources anymore - I was like WTH...but again it's made the choice between internal and external trade routes more interesting, the choice of city placement more interesting etc

love the floating cities -which way do i move, do i move, build or rush buy?

I like diplomacy - at least, I like the basic idea. I like the traits and trading etc. But I still haven't worked out if there is actually some mechanism that is determining what gets me a trade with the AI, or if it's just random. Noone will trade with me - even my 2 allies. NOt sure if they have to fear me as well as respect...?

I love the artifacts and digs - the explorers are now useful and it really adds an extra level of fun to the early game.

Don't like

Some of the perks and wonders from artifacts are stupidly OP. I haven't played enough to tell if they're really OP for someone at my level -or just fun. I can understand better players going WTH, though

The non-transprent mechanism behind the diplo trading - noone will trade with me and I haven't a clue why not.

currently my likes seriously outweigh the dislikes
 
For me too the negativity seems way overblown. I am a longtime civ fan (played since civ1). BE was terrible at launch and the critic was justified. Yes Rising tide has some bugs but the so called overpowered and unbalanced gameplay is fairly (not perfect) balanced given that there are a lot of powerful strategies to employ and not just one you personally think is the most OP. I think the trade is a tad too strong for the faction having the bonus for this and the 5% interest on energy obviously needs a cap, but apart from these minor things I am having a lot of FUN and that is most important to me. I hope MP is working in this version because it was terrible in BE, if so then firaxis rightfully should get some criticism for this. But overall... I think the designers really redeemed themselves on Rising tide compared with BE vanilla.
 
Below are my thoughts after finishing my first game of BERT. Where I criticize, I try to give suggestions, in the event a Firaxis person reads this. Sorry that it's a long read, I just love this game series, and I have put this out there.

Caveat: In my old age, I don't play to "win" in the fastest time frame that I can. I just do what I think is fun until I get bored, then I go for a victory condition. Apologies if this stuff is repeated elsewhere (especially the gripe about diplomacy notifications).


Positives:

*I really, really like the new diplomacy system. Contrary to what others are saying, I felt like the leaders do have individual personalities, and interacting with them is completely worth it, both as a sort of minigame, and to get benefits for my civ/faction/colony. I have a few reservations, see below, but generally this experience is far better.

*I really like the recolored and reconstructed interface elements, the look of the new oceans, the new units, and so on. The new art was outstanding, and the gameplay feels really smooth.

*Spy satellites. If these were actually there in vanilla, my bad for not noticing them. However, as a new feature, they're very welcome. Especially as Supremacy - I can actually explore the map!

*Artifacts. I enjoyed this new system - it encourages continued exploration way later than you might otherwise. The perks (like secret wonders) are fun, and can be seriously OP. However, I couldn't tell if the AI was using this system at all.

*Hybrid affinities are a welcome layer of complexity, providing far more choices, and they often had unexpected, spooky results. I'm still not sure what Hellions, Vorticies, or Aquillions are, but I sure enjoyed using them.

*Ocean cities are gloriously weird, formidable, and quite flexible. They definitely reproduce how ocean cities felt in SMAC, with curious new features too. I have one reservation, see below.

*I played my first game as INTEGR. Don't change them - they're amazing, and their unique power definitely helped to learn the new diplomacy system.

*Overall: Far more "depth" (lol ocean pun). Way more options in every part of the game, so many so that I probably overlooked a lot. I didn't get bored until far later in the game, and even then the unexpected DOWs from other powers kept me on my toes the whole game. There's so much more *stuff* in the world! On land, at see, everywhere, it's great!

*The AI has a slightly better idea of how to handle naval warfare. They still give up at sea pretty quickly, but at least they try more than once, and they keep their ships in coherent groups.

*No obvious bugs that I saw. At least, nothing crashed, nothing graphically glitched, nothing was clearly wrong in a way that didn't seem to be a design choice. If something in my "negatives" section below is actually a bug, I would feel better about it.


Negatives:

*Loss of some parts of the old diplomacy system. As others have observed, there is no way to cynically bribe Civ A to attack Civ B. You also can't pay a Civ that hates you for ROP. My suggestion: Permit us to buy DOW and ROP with lump sums of diplomatic capital. That is, after all, what "diplomatic capital" is - having sufficient "leverage" that other people do what you ask.

*Loss of ability to gift away cities. I don't mind losing resource-trading, we have loads of new ways to get resources. However, cities is a big problem. Why on Earth (pun?) can't I trade these away?

*Too many diplomacy notifications from advisors. My advisors wouldn't shut up about available agreements, frequently ones I'd known about for ages, and that I couldn't afford. They quieted once I had 5x active agreements, but it was rough before then. Please let us disable these.

*Too many diplomacy notifications from other leaders. I love that they're chatty, snarky, and endlessly commenting. My suggestion: please don't change that. But, at least give us one or more of the following: The option to turn off the pop-up notifications. The option to change their size, or move them to elsewhere on the screen. The option to turn off the beep. The option to have only new messages pop-up on the screen.

*Suddenly unlocked buildings. Things like Holosuite, Neurolab, Xenofuel Plant, Xenonursery and so on. These used to require having a workable, developed source of a resource near the city. Now they're just suddenly unlocked, I think either when you have such a resource somewhere in the empire, or a trade route brings you one. I kinda enjoyed having access to these everywhere, but it didn't feel like this was meant to happen. My suggestion: Please either remove this strangeness, or change the tooltips on the buildings to explain what is really happening.

*Units not revealing nearby invisible units properly. Some units claim to be able to reveal nearby invisible units, but moving next to a tile where I know a submarine just fired from doesn't reveal anything. I can't move into the tile, so I know something's there, but I see nothing. What the what? Also, toward the end, anything could reveal submarines just by moving next to them. I'm not sure what's going on here. Maybe I didn't understand the explanations as they were written?

*End of War problems: I don't enjoy being forced to annex cities that I don't want in a peace deal. My suggestion: Please let the victor dictate the terms of victory, rather than being stuck with terms they don't want. Also, at one point, I was up 3000 to 200 in a war, but the other guy wouldn't give up. Perhaps because the unalterable terms of victory required him to cede to me six cities (that I didn't want). I'm not sure how to phrase a suggestion here, but surely you can see the problem?

*Wild fluctuations in strategic resources. One turn I'd have 9x Firaxite. The next I'd have -1. The next turn I was back up to 9x. No event notification explained what happened, and I didn't queue up any production involving that resource. I expect this is the result of other peoples' trade routes with me expiring and being renewed. Please at least give us a notification on the far right that I can mouse over explaining this. (Not necessarily for every trade route, just ones involving strategic resources!)

*Ocean Cities require roads for internal trade network bonuses. Yeah, sure, I'll just dig a highway through the Marianas Trench. NOPE. This is silly, Firaxis. Please just let us connect the cities by water, even if we have to build a Harbor or something.


Ongoing things that still bother me, dating back to CIV/CIVBE:

*The AI still doesn't do much. It's either "the Runaway" or a potato. This first game of BERT did feature a lot more AI activity, including far more unexpected DOWs. However, only one or two civs ever posed a serious challenge to me. The rest just puttered around for a while. Not sure what to say about that.

*Virtues balance. I still see no viable alternative to going Prosperity, at least in the early game. Extra colonist, and extra health can't be beat. (This may be my playstyle, I'm kindof a carebear builder!)

*Outer tech tree is largely irrelevant. You get what you need for your victory condition, and that's it. Unless you're just playing to Time victory... If the Contact victory is in play, the game ends even sooner.

*Satellites: Two things. First, please give us the option to voluntarily de-orbit a satellite. If there is one already, please educate me. Otherwise, why can't we? Second, I really don't understand why we can only put up a satellite within a certain distance from our bases. I know it's a gameplay>realism thing, but this is so grotesquely unrealistic, that it erodes my suspension of disbelief. My suggestion would be to let us put satellites wherever (though keeping the minimum distance between them), and just make the shoot-down radius larger. This would also help with the unrealism of not being able to see at least the shorelines of the map, without taking the special loadout at the start. We could put spy satellites wherever, and see the map much sooner. Just my two cents, moving on :)

*The Mini-Map: It's good like it is, but please give us the option to make it larger. (If that's already there somewhere, please educate me.) I just want to gloat over a large map of my empire :lol:

*Air attacks: Please let us attack with more than one air unit, from the same starting tile, at the same time, like in Civ4. Having to individually do each different unit is a mindless bore, especially when we have to watch them fly the whole flippin' way there, and they sometimes fly around a few more times than they need to.

*Final Victory Screen: I actually really liked the new Supremacy victory movie. I agree with the guys saying it's minimally animated, but it fit the aesthetic of the game very well, and was far more interesting than before. However, I include this in the list of "bother" things, because there is no excuse for this not being in the game the first time around.


Overall Evaluation: A very positive experience, a definite upgrade from CIVBE, and a great evolution in the series. After the mess that was launch-day vanilla CIV, and the comparative disappointment that a lot of us felt with CIVBE, I don't expect to buy a vanilla, launch-day Firaxis release again in the near future (I already skipped Starships). However, the last several patches, and now BERT have confirmed that there will always be hope - Firaxis is definitely capable of patching and expanding its vanilla games into excellence, even if it takes a little time :)
 
*Ocean Cities require roads for internal trade network bonuses. Yeah, sure, I'll just dig a highway through the Marianas Trench. NOPE. This is silly, Firaxis. Please just let us connect the cities by water, even if we have to build a Harbor or something.

I'm fairly sure Ocean cities are connected even if the road connection icon doesn't show. My empire in the let's play was 100% water cities and I got 200ept at the end.
 
Playing as Daoming now. An AI actually beat me to Master Control when my city was going to build it in 1 turn. I just put the wonder in the build queue to build right after a trade convoy that would take a few turns. I am such an idiot and unlucky. An AI built it on the same turn as the MC was going to be built next turn. So, yeah, when you play sub-optimally, it is possible for the AI to beat Daoming at wonder building, despite her 1 turn wonder bonus.
 
I'm having a lot of problems with the diplomacy system. I was so excited by the agreements and the traits, then I realized that no A.I. would actually let me purchase any agreement from them. Cooperative, allied, will they sell me any agreement? Nope. 9 like / 9 fear. Nope.

Does allied mean the A.I. will immediately drag me into a war that ruins all my reputation after like 2-3 turns. Yep.

Will the war ever end without me killing the A.I. Nope.

Is this system bugged currently? Because my experience so far is:
1) You can't buy agreements
2) You can't ever make peace once an A.I. drags you into a war
3) Allying just means your buddy, will randomly put you at war with 1-2 people. Will they help you in your wars. No way.

What's the deal?

Also... The A.I. is completely incapable of fighting in the water. No ships, no defenses and totally unable to deal with submarines. Sigh. Should I just stop playing and wait for the third expansion to fix the massive game breaking bugs, inept A.I. and game breaking strats.

Note: All this is on Apollo difficulty.
 
I'm fairly sure Ocean cities are connected even if the road connection icon doesn't show. My empire in the let's play was 100% water cities and I got 200ept at the end.

Well, I'm in my second game now (just one more turn, right?), and I have two cities, both in the water. I actually am getting 1 energy "from city connections," so that's encouraging. Maybe I jumped the gun a little on that one :P
 
Makes me wonder if cities get the 20% Production Boost if you build Magrails on the City Tile.
 
Firaxis seriously needs to make the AI build units.

I've had two declarations of war so far on Gemini when they only appeared to have one naval unit a piece to attack my aquatic cities.

I don't actually want to take their cities because of the health hit, but it is annoying to have pointless respect relations wars where the AI doesn't even have a prayer of beating me.

If anything they should have more units than the player to compensate for their lack of tactics.

Keep the AIs from declaring wars that they can't fight, or make them actually build armies, or preferably both.

Did the Devs ever test war with them? Ever?
 
*Satellites: Two things. First, please give us the option to voluntarily de-orbit a satellite. If there is one already, please educate me.

If you click the satellite there is a delete button, just like there is for other units.
 
I'm having a lot of problems with the diplomacy system. I was so excited by the agreements and the traits, then I realized that no A.I. would actually let me purchase any agreement from them. Cooperative, allied, will they sell me any agreement? Nope. 9 like / 9 fear. Nope.

Perhaps, your fear is too high. The AI will sell me agreements all the time.

Does allied mean the A.I. will immediately drag me into a war that ruins all my reputation after like 2-3 turns. Yep.

Will the war ever end without me killing the A.I. Nope.

That's a bug that Firaxis is working to fix.

Also... The A.I. is completely incapable of fighting in the water. No ships, no defenses and totally unable to deal with submarines. Sigh. Should I just stop playing and wait for the third expansion to fix the massive game breaking bugs, inept A.I. and game breaking strats.

Not for me. Hutama rushed me with 5 melee ships, a cruiser and a sub. So my experience has been quite different.

Oh and I am playing Soyuz difficulty.
 
I'm happy about the new features, but it feels very unpolished. My fear is that Firaxis is going to take three months just to patch their new expansion. I mean come on, some of this stuff is so obvious I can't believe beta testers could have missed them.
 
I'm happy about the new features, but it feels very unpolished. My fear is that Firaxis is going to take three months just to patch their new expansion. I mean come on, some of this stuff is so obvious I can't believe beta testers could have missed them.

They didn't.
You ARE the beta testers
 
I don't see reports of the game crashing, which is what you'd expect in beta. Some bugs (already developer-confirmed) and balance issues. Balance issues are a mixed bag, some are glaring, others aren't, and a lot are skill-dependent.

A lot of the better players are saying the game is just as easy, so if we're up for shouting so loudly the developers nerf everything into the ground, then go that route. Otherwise, maybe wait before shouting "beta test" because it really doesn't mean what you think it does.
 
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