(Rising Tides) Hybrid-Affinities

[Galgus]

I'm finding myself disappointed by the Purity-Harmony hybrid. While others have noted that it's closer to Purity than Harmony, I think the real issue is that it incorporates Harmony's techniques but not its underlying philosophy. Harmony does use genetic engineering, but it isn't about genetic engineering. It's about adapting humanity to the new planet, and genetic engineering is only a means to that end. Unfortunately I don't see that coming through in the Purity-Harmony hybrid.
It's worth noting that pure Purity is already described as using genetic engineering to remove perceived imperfections from the human genome. Purity-Harmony seems as much like an extreme extension of that as it does a hybrid with Harmony, especially given the focus on human antiquity and mythology in the units' names and aesthetics.

As I've said before, ideally I'd like the affinity to use environmental genetic engineering to optimize it to aid them.

It would be a fusion of Purity's mentality to change the world to suit their needs and Harmony's mentality of adapting to thrive.

Every hybrid needs things that it agree with and disagrees with its parent affinities on.
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@Red Menace

Agreed, the choice would feel more meaningful if there was such a commitment.
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@GenEngineer

That is an extreme and, in my opinion, innacurate view of mainline Purity for reasons stated before.

The Purity mindset is a dedication to preserving humanity's cultural heritage and a (healthy) fear of how changing the human form or relying on sentient AI could backfire.

Neither Purity nor Harmony has an inherent ideological aversion to robots, though they aren't fanatically enthusiastic about advanced AIs like Supremacy is.

 

[GenEngineer]

As I've said before, ideally I'd like the affinity to use environmental genetic engineering to optimize it to aid them.

It would be a fusion of Purity's mentality to change the world to suit their needs and Harmony's mentality of adapting to thrive.

Every hybrid needs things that it agree with and disagrees with its parent affinities on.
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@Red Menace

Agreed, the choice would feel more meaningful if there was such a commitment.

Purity-Harmony: Agrees with Harmony that limiting the potential of the human genome to what it was at it's peak on earth is ridiculous, something it disagrees with Purity with. Agrees with Purity that there is no reason to adapt themselves to the world hen they have the capability to bend the world to suit their needs, something it disagrees with Harmony with.

Purity-Supremacy: Agrees with Purity that the human form does not need to be changed beyond it's squishy, natural state to thrive in it's environment, without the assistance of AI, a point on which it disagrees with Supremacy. Admits with Supremacy that advanced technology needs to be developed and simply trying to recreate or slightly on the feats of old Earth is not enough, a point it disagrees with Purity on (All of Purity harkens back to something old: A man in armor, or tanks upgraded to float).

Harmony-Supremacy: ... I got nothing. All I can see is a grab bag of whatever toys it can take from both affinities, without enough evidence to support it clashing with either of them.

EDIT: Just re-read the flavor behind the Aegis - it does in fact include an AI, which I thought it didn't but it also says that that's uncharacteristic of the Purity affinity, who 'distrust anything not controlled by a human mind'. Even then, there's still a man in the suit in charge, making It more like Iron Man with Jarvis (in the MCU, anyway) and less like an actual Robot.

 

[Galgus]

Purity's interest in genetic engineering has always been a bit vague, but given that they are engineering they are definitely going beyond what was on earth.

This is definitely an issue that would vary on a spectrum, but one could easily argue for Purity supporting direct improvements: no genetic disease, general disease resistance, longer (immortal?) life, greater physical fitness and more endurance.

Of course, this would all be limited to what they would consider the ideal human form without the splicing or further alterations of Harmony and Purity / Harmony.

As much as I hope for it, I haven't seen any evidence of Purity / Harmony being enthusiastic with terraforming or environmental engineering.
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Purity goes far beyond the technology of Old Earth - all of the Affinities do.

The only real limitations are sentient AI and excessively altering the human form.

Purity is nostalgic, not stupid.

Part of the reason Purity war machines are very bulky and rugged is that their engineers are used to designing things to protect natural humans, making them adept and perhaps enthusiastic in designing heavy armor.
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The disagreements in Harmony / Supremacy seems to be not wanting to truly adapt to the world and preserve it and having little enthusiasm for mental uploading.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Pete and David said H-S is basically power by any means necessary. They are a true hybrid. They borrow equally from both parents without the moral limitations of either. They aren't just borrowing life forms or DNA from native ecology, they are creating new ones wholesale. They aren't trying to fit human brains in computers or grafting machine parts onto human frames, they are putting AI into organic bodies. They are organic beings with superconductors for nervous systems and nanobots for blood.

 

[Amrunril]

I think the distinction here is what Harmony and Purity use the genetic techniques for. Both of them have a focus on it to some extent, their hybrid even more so, but they used them differently.

Purity used to gene therapy to correct flaws. They would take what would be considered the ideal human and use it as the baseline, eliminating defects in the sequence that took away from that perfection (genetic disorders a la sickle cell anemia, etc...)

Harmony, on the other hand, always looked farther. The human form wasn't the goal - it was the first step. Push it farther, adapt it to make it better, that was a key tenet of Harmony. As a pure affinity, that meant adapt to be in line with planet, further using genetic techniques to work with the native life.

The Hybrid would fall somewhere in between. Why settle for making what was, when you can go farther? They would still idolize human culture and human centricity, but there would be an element of 'let's do better'. Harmony might turn you into something non-human, and Purity would leave you as a boring regular human, but the Hybrid seeks to turn you into a superhuman.

Another point mentioned earlier is that links to this is Purity's disdain for advancement. Their idolization of the past means that a lot of what they do is still centered in the human elements - they don't build robots, they build suits, fortresses. They may be willing to use vehicles to accomplish work, but nothing that advances to far past what we have now - after all, if there was a better way of doing it, wouldn't we have thought of it already, even if it needs perfecting? That's the Purity mindset.

I agree that the hybrid affinity goes beyond what base purity is willing to consider, from "cleaning up" genetic disorders and junk DNA to actively working towards a superhuman form. I don't however, think that this new direction has anything in common philosophically with Harmony. Harmony was never about making the human form better it general. It's about making humans (and their society) better adapted specifically to the new planet.

The hybrid affinity makes plenty of sense as an offshoot or alternate interpretation of Purity. It even makes a little bit of sense as an alternative version of Supremacy (transcending humanity's limits through genetic engineering rather than robotics). Without the specific connection to the new planet though, I just don't see the philosophical aspect of Harmony represented.

 

[Red Menace]

It would be nice if they make a message box appear asking you to choose to lock your path to one affinity, so you couldn't use other affinity units or Buildings making it feel more Unique.

@Red Menace

Agreed, the choice would feel more meaningful if there was such a commitment.

If only there was a way to ask Firaxis to use this idea (or something similar like a quest where in order to progress further you MUST choose an affinity)

 

[Galgus]

If only there was a way to ask Firaxis to use this idea (or something similar like a quest where in order to progress further you MUST choose an affinity)

That would tie in well with a quest chain for each Affinity and hybrid, which would be fun.

 

[GenEngineer]

That would tie in well with a quest chain for each Affinity and hybrid, which would be fun.

Perhaps it could tie into the Victory Quests? Building the massive wonder causes you to lose all of the perks of affinities other than the victory one, resets progress in all other affinities to 0, etc... ?

 

[Amrunril]

If only there was a way to ask Firaxis to use this idea (or something similar like a quest where in order to progress further you MUST choose an affinity)

I don't think it's necessary to make such clear distinctions. The point of hybrid affinities is (at least in theory) that they're close technologically and philosophically to their parent affinities. I don't see any reason, for instance, that it would be problematic to have Purity and Purity-Supremacy units fighting side by side or for a colony's philosophy to fall somewhere in between a pure ideology and a hybrid one.

Focusing exclusively on a single affinity, balancing equally between two and having one affinity as a primary focus and another as a secondary focus all seem like they should be valid choices, both gameplay-wise and thematically. I'd much rather allow these choices to develop organically than force an artificial choice between them.

 

[Galgus]

Perhaps it could tie into the Victory Quests? Building the massive wonder causes you to lose all of the perks of affinities other than the victory one, resets progress in all other affinities to 0, etc... ?

That would work well as a finisher.
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@Amrunril

It would help to distinguish the affinities both as philosophies and as unique playstyles.

They are distinct visions of the future, and it would be best if their differences were emphasized.

 

[GenEngineer]

On a similar note regarding unique playstyles/philosophies, does anyone know if the hybrid affinities have their own buildings, like the gene gardens / organ printers? It would go a ways to diversifying what they excel at and how they achieve similar goals, while also providing philosophies in the civilopedia flavor text.

 

[Galgus]

On a similar note regarding unique playstyles/philosophies, does anyone know if the hybrid affinities have their own buildings, like the gene gardens / organ printers? It would go a ways to diversifying what they excel at and how they achieve similar goals, while also providing philosophies in the civilopedia flavor text.

That would be nice, though I'd also like to see powerful buildings requiring higher ranks of an affinity, to also reward pure affinities.

 

[Red Menace]

On a similar note regarding unique playstyles/philosophies, does anyone know if the hybrid affinities have their own buildings, like the gene gardens / organ printers? It would go a ways to diversifying what they excel at and how they achieve similar goals, while also providing philosophies in the civilopedia flavor text.

I was wondering the same thing i really hope they do, but without really Locking affinities than wouldn't it be really easy to use hybrid buildings?

I don't think it's necessary to make such clear distinctions. The point of hybrid affinities is (at least in theory) that they're close technologically and philosophically to their parent affinities. I don't see any reason, for instance, that it would be problematic to have Purity and Purity-Supremacy units fighting side by side or for a colony's philosophy to fall somewhere in between a pure ideology and a hybrid one.

Focusing exclusively on a single affinity, balancing equally between two and having one affinity as a primary focus and another as a secondary focus all seem like they should be valid choices, both gameplay-wise and thematically. I'd much rather allow these choices to develop organically than force an artificial choice between them.

I see what you're saying, but as Galgus already said it would help to distinguish the Affinities for gameplay and philosophical reasons, i just dont think it makes sense that i can build some Harmony specific building when im going Purest Purity or the most Supreme Supremacy.

 

[Galgus]

It would be really easy to use all the current affinity buildings as hybrid - but one requiring level 12 or 16 or so would help pure affinities stay relevant.

 

[GenEngineer]

Maybe the questions really one of how easy is it to get levels in affinity? Does getting level 1 in Harmony require the same amount of points at all stages, making hybridizing really easy to do to grab anything at lower, early game levels, or does it take more points to level up all affinities for every level you have in one? If it takes exactly as much to get to Purity 6 as it does to Purity-Harmony 3-3, then Hybrids become much more distinct as a playstyle, representing an actual decision rather than a foregone conclusion.

 

[Galgus]

That's a good point, and it would make it much harder to go from a hybrid to maxing one of its parent affinities.

That said, I still think the primary affinities need buildings and/or perks requiring high affinity level to not taper off lategame compared to the hybrids.

 

[GenEngineer]

If all levels are balanced to be the same, then the ultimate units at least would already be balanced - 13 to unlock for the parent affinities, and 7 of each for the hybrid (if sources are correct) adding up to 14, which would make it slightly slower if all levels scale well you get a level. As far as buildings go, that could simply be adjusting when the existing ones unlock so it's spread out more thoroughly, rather than stopping in midgame (as opposed to adding buildings, freeing up space to add hybrid buildings).

 

[gyrobot]

I agree that the hybrid affinity goes beyond what base purity is willing to consider, from "cleaning up" genetic disorders and junk DNA to actively working towards a superhuman form. I don't however, think that this new direction has anything in common philosophically with Harmony. Harmony was never about making the human form better it general. It's about making humans (and their society) better adapted specifically to the new planet.

The hybrid affinity makes plenty of sense as an offshoot or alternate interpretation of Purity. It even makes a little bit of sense as an alternative version of Supremacy (transcending humanity's limits through genetic engineering rather than robotics). Without the specific connection to the new planet though, I just don't see the philosophical aspect of Harmony represented.

That little wolf beetle is going to have technorganic scythes grafted to it. The Xenotitan will have cybernetics installed into it so it can communicate with it's handlers to be ready to coordinate flawless attacks

 

[Galgus]

If all levels are balanced to be the same, then the ultimate units at least would already be balanced - 13 to unlock for the parent affinities, and 7 of each for the hybrid (if sources are correct) adding up to 14, which would make it slightly slower if all levels scale well you get a level. As far as buildings go, that could simply be adjusting when the existing ones unlock so it's spread out more thoroughly, rather than stopping in midgame (as opposed to adding buildings, freeing up space to add hybrid buildings).

The game could use more affinity buildings, I think.

Many techs are, frankly, hardly worth researching.

 

[DefiantMars]

I wrote this brief description for Harmony/Purity.

"The human form is ideal, it's functions are not. By learning from this new planet we can become a humanity unbound by historical limitations."

Translation: Imma become an Immortal!

I really like what I'm seeing with this Hybrid affinity but I really wish that they would push it a bit further, namely in their planetary interaction.