(Rising Tides) Hybrid-Affinities

Yeah, as of now they just feel like the Supremacy of genetic engineering - thinking that changing their genes will lead them to a golden age.

(Or is it a bronze age for them?)

I'd like to see emphasis on terraforming, and I could totally see them engineering areas to their liking and giving them pretentious, mythological names.
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Gaah - as a Purist they feel like they are plagiarizing: the glories of Old Earth were not meant for filthy gene splicers!

At least the Harmonists are proud of being backwards space hippies. /s.

Somehow as a Purity fan the H/P hybrid annoys me.

P/S are just uninteresting cowards hiding behind their tinmen and dolls, while S/H are so crazy that they aren't worth taking seriously.

But H/P? They seem to radiate a smug "I'm better than you" attitude.
 
Yeah, as of now they just feel like the Supremacy of genetic engineering - thinking that changing their genes will lead them to a golden age.

(Or is it a bronze age for them?)

I'd like to see emphasis on terraforming, and I could totally see them engineering areas to their liking and giving them pretentious, mythological names.

With names like Immortal and Architect for their unique units, I can totally see them "playing god". In my head, this would not only be just making a better humanity, but making a better planet as well...

Gaah - as a Purist they feel like they are plagiarizing: the glories of Old Earth were not meant for filthy gene splicers!

At least the Harmonists are proud of being backwards space hippies. /s.

Somehow as a Purity fan the H/P hybrid annoys me.

I'd be concerned if you weren't at least somewhat annoyed. True Purity should not be totally okay with Harmony/Purity. You should be going "What in the name of Old Earth are you doing?!" Because based on the units, they're clearly not quite "human" anymore... they're more like "meta-human".

If this was extrapolated to multiple planets, I can see Harmony/Purity arriving on a new planet and going "Hey that's a sequence we've never worked with before." I'm not even a Starcraft player, but I really do get the Zerg vibe from this.

In light of this new information I think that your names for the hybrids might need to be swapped.

Harmony/Purity: Synergy -> Ascendancy
Supremacy/Harmony: Ascendancy -> Synergy

Given that the philosophies seem to support that better. H/P is about making the Human unto the divine; Ascending it to a higher form of life. While S/H's "Strength by any means" seems to take the best of both biological and mechanical and making it into something greater.
 
Saying that Purity hates vehicles goes far beyond those themes, and is in my mind comparable with saying that Harmony wants to abandon all mechanical technology at some point or that Supremacy wants to erase all human emotion.
I think a part of Purity is also: they care a lot more about the individual than the other affinities. I mean all of them care about humanity in a big picture way, but Purity cares about living breathing humans in the now.

That's a good reason for why they don't want excessive genetic improvement or excessive automation: it creates inequality, poverty and so forth. If a P/H demigod exists, all living baseline humans are minions. If a P/S factory drone operator can control a small factory single-handedly (still not Supremacy with its autonomous operation), then a legion of exoskeleton-equipped workers just lost their jobs.

Purity is willing to forsake some technology, not just out of fear, but because they are willing to go the slow path with incremental automation, incremental changes, giving everybody a niche they can excel in. That is also evident in their victory: it's about rescuing the current Earthlings, not just about constructing a better future by any means necessary (Supremacy).
 
Also, if another has seen the harmony/supremacy infantry unit, you'll remember that I said that it reminds me of hl2, right? Well, forget that and look at harmony/supremacy flying carrier. It reminds me of the advisors from hl2 while the invis unit reminds me of the hunters from hl2 ep 2.

Yet again, thanks for the (probably inadvertent) hl2 references, Firaxis! :D
 
the golden dudes remind me a bit of the engineer race from alien/prometheus, just the color is different, but that's also cool because it fits both them and the Greek-god-like idea
 
@Amrunril

It would help to distinguish the affinities both as philosophies and as unique playstyles.

They are distinct visions of the future, and it would be best if their differences were emphasized.

They are distinct visions, but that doesn't mean it should be impossible for a colony to alter or deviate from those visions, or to create its own vision incorporating some aspects from multiple pure affinities. After all, mixing aspects of the parent affinities is exactly what hybrid affinities are supposed to be about.

It makes perfect sense for a colony to be able to explore multiple low level affinity bonuses, which require a less extreme commitment to their respective affinities. Higher level bonuses become gradually but increasingly difficult to incorporate, to the point where many combinations can't be achieved in anything but extreme sandbox play. I think this "soft" limitation on affinity mixing is thematically appropriate, and it makes for much more interesting gameplay options than an explicit ban on mixing affinity bonuses beyond a certain fixed level.

I see what you're saying, but as Galgus already said it would help to distinguish the Affinities for gameplay and philosophical reasons, i just dont think it makes sense that i can build some Harmony specific building when im going Purest Purity or the most Supreme Supremacy.

So is your main concern pure affinities using buildings from other pure affinities? I think it makes sense to allow that for early game buildings, as these buildings haven't yet gone too far down the path of their respective affinities. For later game buildings. Higher level buildings should have high enough affinity prerequisites to prevent use by other affinities even without an explicit restriction.
 
Yeah, I really like the P/H units. Gold and Purple feel like such regal colors, fit for divine beings that are still holding onto a good portion of their humanity.

Though, if I had to critique them, I'd maybe wish for them to be a slightly larger scale compared to the others, especially since they're not adorned with as much thick armor with things like shoulder pads to accentuate and broaden their shoulders and make them look stronger. They have an almost nude look to them, which is cool and fits their theme, but they should also be slightly larger.

Also, at first glance, I disliked the decorative arch behind their heads and wished that they would have stayed minimalistic. But, I'm thinking the artists meant for that to somewhat symbolize some type of halo around their heads, like you see in paintings, to express their divinity.

Perhaps, if players think they just need a little bit more and they're too plain, maybe a purple loincloth can be added. :D
 
The game could use more affinity buildings, I think.

Many techs are, frankly, hardly worth researching.
I agree more affinity buildings would be awesome, adding really unique effects to those buildings (like say something to do with mountains or canyons)

So is your main concern pure affinities using buildings from other pure affinities? I think it makes sense to allow that for early game buildings, as these buildings haven't yet gone too far down the path of their respective affinities. For later game buildings. Higher level buildings should have high enough affinity prerequisites to prevent use by other affinities even without an explicit restriction.
well i am concerned about buildings but more so about Hybrid Uniques, 3 H/S for example wouldn't be hard to achieve especially since they added affinity points to branch techs, and well it might be pretty cool to add them to your army it just feels like its taking away from the Hybrids IMO.
i dont see them adding the option to lock affinity without a menu button for disabling/enabling, like they already did with Biome effects and Marvels.
 
The hybrid affinity makes plenty of sense as an offshoot or alternate interpretation of Purity. It even makes a little bit of sense as an alternative version of Supremacy (transcending humanity's limits through genetic engineering rather than robotics). Without the specific connection to the new planet though, I just don't see the philosophical aspect of Harmony represented.

Maybe a Paradox, maybe an intended feature I see the hybrid affinities taking part of the philosophical stance of the opposite affinity.

  • As some have already noted: Purity-Harmony is almost "genetic" Supremacy... become a race above all, transcend the limits - then, conquer! (Difference is supremacy adapts themselves to all environments, P-H only to the specific planet).
  • Then Harmony-Supremacy and Purity, they are both about don't-mess-with-us raw power. Be stronger than others, but no specific "ultimate improvement" agenda. (Difference is maybe Purity is more conservative, old-school and versed on defense, while Harmony-Suppremacy is whatever it takes, and maybe more attack oriented).
  • Finally Harmony and Supremacy-Purity seem more "enlightened" (for lack of a better word) solutions, trying to fit all the pieces for a "beautiful" solution (If you start to think I sound like Elodie, you are not the only ones :p).. Difference is Harmonly search the fit with the planet nature, while Supremacy-Purity searches the fit with advanced technology.
 
I think a part of Purity is also: they care a lot more about the individual than the other affinities. I mean all of them care about humanity in a big picture way, but Purity cares about living breathing humans in the now.

That's a good reason for why they don't want excessive genetic improvement or excessive automation: it creates inequality, poverty and so forth. If a P/H demigod exists, all living baseline humans are minions. If a P/S factory drone operator can control a small factory single-handedly (still not Supremacy with its autonomous operation), then a legion of exoskeleton-equipped workers just lost their jobs.

Purity is willing to forsake some technology, not just out of fear, but because they are willing to go the slow path with incremental automation, incremental changes, giving everybody a niche they can excel in. That is also evident in their victory: it's about rescuing the current Earthlings, not just about constructing a better future by any means necessary (Supremacy).

I'd give the other affinities the benefit of the doubt and say that they all value human life, though not neccessarilly the human form.

If everyone receives some basic genetic fixes, everyone is better off - though that would likely be a new generation thing.
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Automation and freeing up labor is a path to greater wealth, not a loss.

It's been the pattern of history for labor-saving inventions to lead to greater wealth and specialization in society, and Purity knows history well.

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Supremacy in a sense has an entirely different version of a bright future, not simply a different way of reaching it.

Purity focuses more on fulfilling human needs while Supremacy focuses on reducing or replacing human needs.

Purity's ideal utopia is one of wealth, leisure, and plenty: Supremacy's utopia is for people to enjoy themselves in a virtual, simulated utopia via uploading or uplinking.
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They are distinct visions, but that doesn't mean it should be impossible for a colony to alter or deviate from those visions, or to create its own vision incorporating some aspects from multiple pure affinities. After all, mixing aspects of the parent affinities is exactly what hybrid affinities are supposed to be about.

It makes perfect sense for a colony to be able to explore multiple low level affinity bonuses, which require a less extreme commitment to their respective affinities. Higher level bonuses become gradually but increasingly difficult to incorporate, to the point where many combinations can't be achieved in anything but extreme sandbox play. I think this "soft" limitation on affinity mixing is thematically appropriate, and it makes for much more interesting gameplay options than an explicit ban on mixing affinity bonuses beyond a certain fixed level.



So is your main concern pure affinities using buildings from other pure affinities? I think it makes sense to allow that for early game buildings, as these buildings haven't yet gone too far down the path of their respective affinities. For later game buildings. Higher level buildings should have high enough affinity prerequisites to prevent use by other affinities even without an explicit restriction.

The more open it is, the more you punish players trying to focus on an affinity and the more you encourage just taking some of everything.

By definition that makes them less distinct mechanically, which conflicts with them being distinct in philosophy.
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The Buildings point could actually be a major problem with pure affinities if Firaxis doesn't make some requiring higher affinity levels.

Currently a single affinity approach unlocks them in the early mid game - meaning that a hybrid affinity will have far more buildings unlocked come late game currently.

In light of the hybrid system and some of the buildings being kind of useless, there needs to be some redesigning.
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@Barathor

I think all of the later level Infantry units look a bit taller, for various reasons.

For Purity, I'm pretty sure it's power armor.

(Though not the walking tank that is the Battlesuit.)
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@Red Menace

Yes, I'd like to see some strong Affinity buildings that really change how the game is played - and ideally make for some interesting tech path choices.

While I don't think it could be balanced without locking players into an affinity or hybrid, unique hybrid affinity buildings could also be fun.

Perhaps at very least they could be unlocked for high-ish hybrid numbers?

They still badly need their own victory conditions.
 
@Galgus - I think the devs have stated that they aren't doing new victory conditions for the hybrid affinities, but I'm curious what you would envision them playing out as - not only from a flavorful standpoint like 'Emancipate the Earth', but also mechanically (what do you have to actually do to win, what are the steps along the path, etc...)?
 
@Barathor

I think all of the later level Infantry units look a bit taller, for various reasons.

For Purity, I'm pretty sure it's power armor.

(Though not the walking tank that is the Battlesuit.)

Yes, I know, this is what I meant:

EXISTING:
RT_Hybrids_00.jpg


NEW:
RT_Hybrids_01.jpg


I'd like to see the P/H hybrids slightly larger. I think because they're much less adorned, almost monochromatic, and the outfit makes them appear unarmored and bare, it would be very fitting to increase their size. Plus, they're meant to be genetically superior and striving to be godlike, an easy way to make that come across is by increasing their size (like Xerxes in 300, haha) -- the Immortal already does this. Heck, the ranged variant of this unit is called the Kodiak as well. Make them beast mode.

Also, below are some quick modifications to show the other ideas I mentioned. I'm not sure I'm crazy about the loincloth, and it may conflict with the themes of the other P/H units. Also, I don't think I like the larger shoulder caps either since now it makes them look more like they're armored. Before, the naturally sized shoulder caps makes them look unarmored and relying more on their enhanced physiques.

RT_Hybrids_02.jpg
 
Way back before hybrid affinities were announced I had an old thread on victories for major/ minor affinities, and I'd probably pick them out from there...though it needs some rethinking.

Honestly, I'd give some of the current victories to hybrids and make new ones for the base affinities.

I wonder if it would be better to make the victories require having at least access to a certain number of strategic resources, to make denying territory a way to stop victory.
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Purity / Supremacy - Gains Promised Land
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Purity - Earth's Renewal

Use your technological advances to heal Earth's climate and ecologically reverse the Great Mistake.

Requirements:

Re-establish contact with Earth.

1. Construct the Renewal Gate planetary wonder.

2. Construct a series of expensive wonder-like caravan units.

3. Send the caravans as well as several colony vehicles and soldiers through the gate.
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Harmony / Purity - Terraformation

Transform the planet into perfect utopia for your civilization, combining the best of both worlds.

Requirements:

Maintain a large number of Terrascapes within your colony.

Maintain a large number of otherwise useless Terraformer Satellites requiring extensive orbital space.

Guard your terrascapes from increased hostile Alien activity in response to the Satellites.

Achieve victory by meeting both threshold requirements for a set amount of time.
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Supremacy / Harmony - Gains Emancipation
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Supremacy - Endless Voyage

Construct a massive, self-sustaining spacecraft capable of harvesting and colonizing new worlds regardless of atmosphere.

Requirements:

1. Construct an Orbital Launch Platform planetary wonder.

2. Construct a series of wonder-like parts for the spacecraft.

3. Construct special improvements over strategic resources that produce caravans of supplies for the spacecraft, and escort them to the launch platform.

4. Achieve victory once all parts have been delivered and quotas on each strategic resource supply caravan have been met.
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@Barathor

Given that the final level infantry for all affinities are already, if memory serves, taller than a normal soldier that seems excessive.

Why would they be larger than a decorated warbot or a war biorobot?

Edit: Having a sort purely decorative loincloth plays into the mythological theme and somehow makes their armor seem more like armor to me, but I'm not sure on it.

Also torn on the shoulders, since they do seem to rely on their physique like Harmony soldiers do, but both of those also wear armor.

Also, I just noticed that their feet look inhuman. Is that what Harmony and Harmony / Purity gene spliced humans look like?
 
I was just looking at some screenshots of the units on the map and I realized that while the H/P Champions are the same size as the other Soldier units, the H/P Immortal unique unit is significantly taller. Closer to the 10 foot proportion used in classical Greek statuary.
 
Which raises all kinds of ethical questions - are they essentially human beings twisted and engineered for war?

Or are they mindless warbeasts like S/H uses, both disturbingly seeming to draw from human DNA?

It gives me a Floater vibe from Xcom, though instead of being disturbingly morbid it is disturbingly glorified.
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On a less ethical note, what is that thing on their left arm anyway?

Ammo?
 
The more open it is, the more you punish players trying to focus on an affinity and the more you encourage just taking some of everything.

By definition that makes them less distinct mechanically, which conflicts with them being distinct in philosophy.
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The Buildings point could actually be a major problem with pure affinities if Firaxis doesn't make some requiring higher affinity levels.

Currently a single affinity approach unlocks them in the early mid game - meaning that a hybrid affinity will have far more buildings unlocked come late game currently.

In light of the hybrid system and some of the buildings being kind of useless, there needs to be some redesigning.

Pursuing a single affinity should absolutely be a valid and effective option. However, I'd much rather see this achieved by ensuring that high level affinity bonuses are strong enough to compete with hybrid strategies than by outright prohibiting players from combining affinities in certain ways. Having powerful buildings unlocked at high affinity levels would probably be an important part of doing this, as would making sure that single affinity units are strong enough not to be eclipsed by hybrid units. There could even be a subset of affinity bonuses that work exclusively or more effectively for single affinity players. I just don't think it's necessary to force players into an all one way or all the other decision when more nuanced options can encourage the same strategies but also preserve players' freedom to explore others.
 
I would think there isn't necessarily any reason to believe that the Immortal isn't fully complicit in the procedure - depending on how Sci-Fi they might go with the Gene Therapy, it could be something volunteered for to better serve as a god on the battlefield, as opposed to the mandatory upgrades required from 'lesser' marines. This is still part Purity after all - reducing anything with even traces of humanity to such a state would be abhorrent.

As for the thing on it's left hand, maybe emergency close combat weapon? Some of the units to attack in melee, so maybe it's a counter to that.
 
Is it feasible to alter someone like that after they are grown?

I'd think that kind of thing would need to be engineered before birth.

Both Harmony and Harmony / Purity seem to essentially become a different race - look at the feet of the Harmony / Purity infantry.
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Hard to tell on that thing.

It almost looks like a shield, but it is completely shaped wrong, and I don't see an opening for any kind of weapon.
 
I think the 1st H/P unit on the left in the 1st image is the Throne which based on some simple deduction seems to be the H/P Ultimate unit... I have to say that I am vastly underwhelmed. I mean, S/H gets a floating biological aircraft carrier (a bio-helicarrier), P/S gets a drone that turns into a wall that body blocks for its allies.

Harmony/Purity gets... a tank... thing? I can see the thematic ties for the other 2 Hybrids but without having the Throne explained, I really don't understand how it ties into its affinity.
 
I love the "spirit wings" that come out of the Immortal after a kill.

I wonder if something more is happening and they gain some type of bonus for each kill.
 
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