Role Play CHallenge: Joao the Restless

[siggboy]

Nintendo:

Spoiler :

Yeah, he really could have had a lot of land, but in my game he expanded really slowly and so was the lowest score leader for most of the game, only getting up to like, 3rd worst in the later part of the game. But then again, wouldn't the maintenance costs have hurt him?

What speed did you play on? I played Epic speed, making sea expansion a lot easier than on normal already. Mad plays Marathon, taking it to yet another level (it's also one reason why his wars are over so quickly .

As far as maintenance costs go, if you look at the size of the island region it will not become more expensive than any other of the empires (including your starting empire, which stretches far out from north to south). A big plus of settling all those islands is that you can have a harbor in pretty much every city, boosting trade income significantly.

Shaka just sucks. If he's stuck on an island group his warmongering becomes inefficient really quickly.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Siggboy:

Spoiler :

Ah, I played on Normal Speed, Noble, that explains it. I guess your right, I took a quick look and thought the island was all disjointed, but it's actually one really big landmass. If a human would have started on something like that the game would practically been won right at the beginning! So much land...

I've noticed that about Shaka though. When he gets a huge landmass with tons of land and little sea, and several other civs, he does amazing. However, on a map with a lot of sea and civs that are sort of far away, he does awful.

Also, on another topic, I think the New World is sort of lousy in this map...

 

[siggboy]

Spoiler :

Also, on another topic, I think the New World is sort of lousy in this map...

Spoiler :

I think the northern half is quite good, I made a few strong cities there that could also grow quickly. The middle ("Panama") part is also very juicy -- the cities there have lots of water tiles, which plays along nicely with our Unique Building. It's only the south-western end and the far south that's not very valuable. As far as resources go, I think what we found here is quite typical for a Terra map. The unsettled continent always has less resources on these maps (since it does have no start positions, which are always artificially improved by the map generator).

Regarding your game speed, I think normal speed is a bit too quick on a large map. Since you played it as an OCC it didn't matter that much for you, but the AI was certainly hampered.

I've also found out that the scenario file that I posted (and which you used) is kind of flawed, because I did not edit it in a few places where I would have to. You've probably noticed that no "the game will end in 100 turns" warning occured in your game, and it should have (you ended in 2007, so you actually had only 43 turns remaining by standard rules). The scenario file, however, was created on Marathon speed, so the game gave you a lot more turns than would have been needed on Normal speed to reach 2050. The AI also assumed that it was still Marathon, so that might have changed a few things (the latter point is really hard to analyze, since we don't know how the AI changes its decisions based on the fact that it thinks it's playing on Marathon speed).

Anyway, it was a nice game you've played. Maybe you should increase your difficulty level. Prince is still quite easy to win. If you want to play a nice OCC, I recommend a small map with not more than 4 opponents. That's really fun.

 

[madscientist]

Thanks for the helps all!!

Calender must come next as I am agressively planning to hunt down every goody hunt on the new world hoping for free Astronomy!!! If we get that and still manage to trip liberalism first we will be in a very good position. Astronomy opens up those intercontinental trade routes which is essential, so if I can get it earlier all the better.

After that we shall see whether Col or Currency. I like Currency more because of the immediate economic help although I expect to get it in a trade soon (I hope).

I also look foreward to finally reading the Spoilers! Alot of them and it appears intriguing, but the game is going very well and as planned so no way I open them up early!

 

[madscientist]

Well you there are a few possible strategies for how to do your 2 continent phase

1. Capital on Old World, FP in New
basically as soon as you move the Palace you liberate the Old World
disadvantage... you need to get the FP in the New World, but you don't waste an FP build

2. Capital on New World, FP in Old
Advantage... the Old World will build the FP faster, and the New World has to build a palace anyways

The second is what I would do
go Code of Laws, Currency, Calendar

Production Priorities of Old World

First Get courthouses and the FP up in the Old World
Second build units to take developed barb cities
Third build Settler/CG Xbow/Workers for colonization

New World Priorities
Palace in new Palace Location... it should be up just before you have as many cities on the New World as the Old

City Growth


Once you have CoL and Courthouses it may be worth going Caste System... it gives you fast Culture in New cities

I definitely like option #2 better. I hate wasting so many hammers in the old world on courthouses but I cannot see a way arround it.

 

[siggboy]

What do you guys think about the New World?

Spoiler :

I'm not really sure, but there's a lot of random desert tiles....where do you think would be the optimum location for Rio de Janeiro?

Here's a picture of "my" new world in 1930:

Spoiler :

North:

South:

By the way, this game is going to be a spectacular loss. Justin went through the roof and Vassalized pretty much everybody except for Shaka. I established myself way too late in the new world, so my infrastructure is not as good as it could be. Typically for me I also neglected my military while Justin built up a huge army (currently he's busy crushing my Vassal like a bug, but after that I'm sure I'll be facing huge stacks).

Currently I'm trying to build a strong navy as to hold him at bay for long enough, but I don't know how I can still win this before 2050. The only hope I have right now is a space win somehow, since the AI is not very tech savvy (but catching up slowly).

Justin has the Statue of Zeus and my War Weariness is crippling. I hate the Statue, never built them myself but will do in the future.

Not sure if this is the perfect location for the capital, but surely a good one.

 

[Rub'Rum]

I said that somewhere, but the Statue of Zeus is a horrible addition to BtS (or was it Warlords?). If you intend to war a lot, you have to build it to prevent the already crippling war weariness to become worse in the hand of the AI, yet it gives you basically nothing to have it because the AI suffers so little war weariness. It's just stupid.

 

[siggboy]

I'm just replaying the map from scratch (this time with only two cities on the starting land mass), and I will build the SoZ this time just to keep it out of the hands of the AI.

Edit: The issue with the SoZ is made even worse through Vassal states. If your "actual" opponent has a vassal with the SoZ, then you will still suffer the effect, because you will be at war with the vassal as well. Sucks. BTW I missed out on the SoZ again ;-(.

Edit 2: first hut on the other continent (I'm not kidding; it's the third time in a row now):


Haha, how funny: the Khmer has just liberated a colony, so in this game my vassal will be somebody else. The butterfly effect is amazing. One different strategy from the beginning on and the entire game turns out completely different.

 

[grandad1982]

Spoilers!^^

 

[madscientist]

I can't read the Spoilers anyway.

By the way, before I play the next segment, let's have the names of some famous Portugese explorer's. I think naming some of those recently make explorers are called for!

 

[tycoonist]

Bartolomeu Dias and Vasco de Gama are two famous ones but they mainly explored Africa and the path to the India

EDIT: wikipedia has a list as per usual:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_exploration_of_Africa#Portuguese_explorers

 

[SergeiKirov]

If you're going to discover the equivalent of Brazil then you should have Pedro Álvares Cabral.

For land explorers you can have Serpa Pinto, the portuguese equivalent of David Livingstone.

Wikipedia also missed two great land explorers, but again in Africa, Hermenegildo Capelo and Roberto Ivens.

You can always use names of other famous sea explorers. It's strange, but we don't seem to have famous Portuguese explorers for South America...

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Spoiler :

I think the northern half is quite good, I made a few strong cities there that could also grow quickly. The middle ("Panama") part is also very juicy -- the cities there have lots of water tiles, which plays along nicely with our Unique Building. It's only the south-western end and the far south that's not very valuable. As far as resources go, I think what we found here is quite typical for a Terra map. The unsettled continent always has less resources on these maps (since it does have no start positions, which are always artificially improved by the map generator).

Regarding your game speed, I think normal speed is a bit too quick on a large map. Since you played it as an OCC it didn't matter that much for you, but the AI was certainly hampered.

I've also found out that the scenario file that I posted (and which you used) is kind of flawed, because I did not edit it in a few places where I would have to. You've probably noticed that no "the game will end in 100 turns" warning occured in your game, and it should have (you ended in 2007, so you actually had only 43 turns remaining by standard rules). The scenario file, however, was created on Marathon speed, so the game gave you a lot more turns than would have been needed on Normal speed to reach 2050. The AI also assumed that it was still Marathon, so that might have changed a few things (the latter point is really hard to analyze, since we don't know how the AI changes its decisions based on the fact that it thinks it's playing on Marathon speed).

Anyway, it was a nice game you've played. Maybe you should increase your difficulty level. Prince is still quite easy to win. If you want to play a nice OCC, I recommend a small map with not more than 4 opponents. That's really fun.

Spoiler :

Yes, it is a bit too quick for large, I usually play normal or small, but I can't play the others, they're far too slow to me

As for moving up, I'd like to but fact is I got very lucky with the Joao II game, I've only won two noble games! I'm not really sure what I did different, perhaps it was the awesome start, but it all worked out

It's odd though, that one of my few OCC's without a Industrious or Philosophical leader, and I didn't have aluminum like I usually do...or oil...or coal...or copper....but somehow it still all worked out!

And I do really bad with non OCC noble games, I play at Warlord usually for a normal game. Prince is still a bit too hard for me.

Also, I didn't notice a game speed difference, and the warning still appeared...

Good luck with your game Mad! A lot of our spoilers on this page are just random discussion about the game.

 

[siggboy]

As for moving up, I'd like to but fact is I got very lucky with the Joao II game, I've only won two noble games! I'm not really sure what I did different, perhaps it was the awesome start, but it all worked out

OCC can be easier actually, because you only have to focus on one city (obviously ;-), so that leaves out a lot of empire management you would have to do in a normal game. Somebody suggested once that an OCC on a small map is a really good way to learn the game, and I agree (well this was not a small map at all, but the point is valid).

And I do really bad with non OCC noble games, I play at Warlord usually for a normal game. Prince is still a bit too hard for me.

Try the PYL I challege (Pick your Leader) and choose Willem of Oranje. He has a very good start position on the map. Try that one on prince difficulty. The game has already been played out by many people so you have a lot of games to compare to (not that many players have picked Willem, though).

Also, I didn't notice a game speed difference, and the warning still appeared...

That is VERY odd. It might be because you started a custom scenario.

Good luck with your game Mad! A lot of our spoilers on this page are just random discussion about the game.

Yes, indeed. I hope all the spoilers and shadowing is not too annoying for you, Mad, but when your game has been played out at least you can read it all and compare. FWIW you're going great so far (the only flaw is the bad decision about razing the fish city, apart from that you're in excellent shape -- brilliant how fast you got to Optics and finished off the Khmer at the same time).

 

[Nares]

Try the PYL I challege (Pick your Leader) and choose Willem of Oranje. He has a very good start position on the map.

He does indeed have a good starting position, and CRE/FIN is a great trait combo.

 

[madscientist]

Hah! Doing well you say. Just wait until you see how BADLY I was able to butcher the economy exploring and settling the new world!!!! However, I am at a point where we can actually activate the lone RPC rule. The we shall see what kind of game, if any we can salvage out of this disaster.

BTW, goody huts really sucked although we got one cheap tech for free. I fear I made a major mistake taking a crossbow/explorer combo rather than the suggested Spy/explorer. Oh well, food for thought on the next time I try a Terra map.

Update coming, I want to make sure we are all in agreement on colonizing the homeland.

By the way, the spoilers are fine, no problems here.

 

[madscientist]

Joao the Restless: Part IV

MY god, what the hell is Joao doing!!! Yes, you all will probably ask that question. Management was a chore with all the new settling and exploring!!! But Joao looks to have his wish, leaving the homeland to the assorted thugs and morons. Let them fight amongst themselves, we want some peace and quiet. Yes, Joao is about to go native!

Techpace we went Calendar/Currency/CoL as promised. We then teched Civil Service which took forever as the economy tanked for a LONGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! time. We ended starting to tech paper so we could get education and the path to economics and the UB.

But first, we met the last AI and I am not surprized

No wonder why I couldn't find him, he never open borders with anyone.

Also don't ask me what the AIs were doing, I ignored them all except for a periodic trade. No one bothered me and I was happy with that.

For exploration we sent 4 Carracks out, each with an explorer and crowwbow. as I hinted I wish I had sent out a spy to prevent ALOT of unfriendly hut popping!

The first team goes directly east and makes fthe first land sighting!

Looks as crappy as what we left. Where are the palm trees and lovely native girls bringing Joao Pina Coladas in coconut shells.

Directly south of our parent lands we find uninhabited lands.

No way, I can see the AIs wanting this terrain fast.

Now we did not pop any huts until we tech calender, just in case we got lucky astronomy (which we did not!).

We get a little closer into the northern lands. Like I said alot like the homeworld.

The AP shows it's ugly head, we abstain wanting nothing to do with these maniacs.

Finally, we popped something from a hut!

We finally teched CoL and switched to caste system

This was nice because any new city we founded we ran an artist specialist for a few turns to pop the border.

We got an annoying Barb uprising which required some defense of Lisbon

We make a rather desperate trade with Vicky, as we do not want to fall completely behind in tech.

We start settling cities in the sourthen part of the new world, strikingly similar to South America in real life, and proceed to name our cities as Brazilian cities!!!! Of course the more we do this, the worse the economy gets.

We make another trade

And we proceeeded to beg gold, and make trades of cheap techs for gold. We build courthouses, sent our experienced troops overseas, and sent alot of settlers.

Up to three!!!!

We also got 2 GSs and I GM (late). We sent the 2 GSs to Sao Paulo, settling the first and building an academy with the other. Prepping for a major beaker loss upon independence!

We captured a barb city and kept it.

That's 4 New World cities, and the costs sky rocket. We are also trying to chop out the Palace in Sao Paulo.

Beggers cannot be choosers.

Here are the cities, notice the new capital

And techs!!

Notice the good news!!! Victoria has Astronomy!!! That means the Northern part of the new wrodl is wide open to English settling.

We got a GM which we used in desperation in teh closest AI city for 3300 gold. Considering our soldiers were striking at -40 gold, this was a wise move.

The current New World, showing 6 cities now.

A full view of the old world.

And the New World

And the New World.

I saved here, on the Eve of Independence!!!

OK, we have a nice treasury with some Carracks full of military and a pair of settlers.

First a question, if I colony off the old world cities, what becomes of the Carrack full of troops? Does it stay Portugese or does it go to the new AI?

Now, the big question. Do we declare indepencdence NOW and run the science slider way up with the new treasury? Or do we finish the FP and try to deal with the maintenace issue.

My feeling is to get rid of the dead weight earlier than later. We have access to Horses and Iron, so we are OK militarily. The faster we estabish a decent economy again and get astronomy, the faster we can get back into the game!

Also, anyone thought of victory conditions??? I am actually condiering going culture, reving up cottages and turning the slider up with liberalism.

 

[matthewthegreat]

First a question, if I colony off the old world cities, what becomes of the Carrack full of troops? Does it stay Portugese or does it go to the new AI?

ALL of your units will stay Portugese unless you give them to the new AI.

I would colony off very soon 26 gold per turn maintenance for just oporto is A LOT!!! I think you should get rid of it as soon as you can.

 

[Commodore Nate]

If you declare independence for a colony, all your units stationed there remain yours unless you gift them to the new AI.
The only thing that happens unit-wise is that a few defenders appear in each freed city.

I think declaring independence as your first move next round would not be a bad idea-however, I have no idea what the costs of a vassal state would do to your already very very VERY weak economy.
But I think that by eliminating those maintenance costs, you should be fine.

 

[Rub'Rum]

You don't seem to have taken Buddhism with you though, are you going to do that?