Role Play Challenge: SeaFaring Victoria

[TRJS]

You forgot to mention the Great Spy you have.

I really think we should start by kicking Shaka off our continent. Using the GSpy on him will help.

 

[Carabodes]

How are things with Charlieboy and Stalin? Go and blockade them for me!

I haven't even tried downloading your save, as I assume you have patched to 3.13 (and patched the patch) and I have not because of OOS-issues in IP-multiplayer, so could you please include screenshots of the world as you know it now?

The great spy:
Either place it with the AI that techs the fastest, or place it with the one you plan to take out first (assuming that's Shaka, since he now has new shiny boats? - and has had the audacity to settle on YOUR continent!), and use it mainly to rob, steal, take down defenses, as well as stealing techs (but I suppose you've now got all the imortant techs yourself, feels a bit lame to use a GS to steal things like music and islam at this stage in the game).
You could of course build Scotland Yard, but that's kind of boring. SY kind of lost it's fun once it was no longer required for building spies.

Go get'em!

 

[madscientist]

SeaFaring Victoria Continued

All good suggestions. Shaka is pretty far behind techwise and I think it's pretty simple to take him out without wasting the great spy.

I decided to use the Great Spy for a golden Age, using one of the Prophets.

Our Tech status at the start, not bad.



Our two best cities during the first turen of the GA





We come up with a trad eoption with Darius



Now regarding Shaka. Trade route take a decent hit once a war is declared. Route have modifiers (harbor +50% for example) to the base amount. Peace for a while gets us to 150%, so hitting Shaka hurts our economy much more than if wer were in a CE or SE. However, Shaka's two cities on our continent is unacceptible.

We tech Nationalism/Physics (got part of a DArius trade)/Military Tradition/Steel, get some cavalry, airships and cannons.

I should mention Charlemange declared war on Shaka earlier.

Once CHarles' Frigates bombarded the Zulu cities a while we mobilized



Took Shakas 2 cities then sued for peace. We also founded 2 more cities on out continent. Also got a GM which we sent off to a Persian city for a trade mission.

Darius is getting ahead of us in tech but we can pull off one critical trade with a different AI



I stopped here after switching civics to emancipation. Here are some saves of our current situation

Civics



Northern part of our empire



The Sourthern part



And a world view



And the other side



Power Graph numbers, doing very well now with cavalry and redcoats, Darius is the only real concern.



Current Victory conditions



And Tech



So here we are.

To answer some other questions; I am running 3.13. Most AIs got chemistry/Astronomy early so I was limited to harrassing Zulu shipping. We got 3 GGs between privateers and the short Zulu war, but the day of the privateer is over.

We need to make some decisions

1) Our teching is decreasing and we are going to have to take corporation sooner or later. Since we have emancipation do we start cottaging our lands or do we try to keep the trade economy all game.
2) Paris has gone into revolt several times. We do not want to los eour second most productive city which could also cause DeGaulle to revolt. Any ideas on how to keep it? The cultural borders whould pop in a few turns plus we have a GP coming soon.
3) Victory conditions: Which way? We are built for trade so wars are not ideal here.

What does everyone think? I'll wait a few days before continuing.

 

[shyuhe]

put lots of military units in a city to prevent it from going in to revolt. If you mouse over the culture slider, you can see the % chance of revolt. Just put in enough troops to make the percentage less than 1.

I think DArius will attempt a cultural victory in this game so you should plan accordingly. He has a massive military and 3 good culture cities. If he beats you to electricity + MM (and their wonders), you'll probably have a hard time dislodging his legendary cities without nukes.

 

[Carabodes]

1) Our teching is decreasing and we are going to have to take corporation sooner or later. Since we have emancipation do we start cottaging our lands or do we try to keep the trade economy all game.
2) Paris has gone into revolt several times. We do not want to los eour second most productive city which could also cause DeGaulle to revolt. Any ideas on how to keep it? The cultural borders whould pop in a few turns plus we have a GP coming soon.
3) Victory conditions: Which way? We are built for trade so wars are not ideal here.

1) About corporation, see 3). I'm kind of reluctant to giving up on the TE (after having spoken warmly about the english cottages earlier) as it's the first time I've seen it used to it's full extent. Maybe you could do a mix? Cottage up a couple of cities and see if it helps? But it is rather difficult to build cottages on farms, it might put the cities in question into famine.

About teching decreasing, see 3), but also: You've got lots of money and can get even more from AI by selling off some techs. They have decent amounts of money and are at the moment not willing to sell you any techs, which means they will be willing to part with their money, that should bring you up tp 8-9000 gold. Then run a deficit by putting your cultural slider to 100% for a long while, then see 3).

2)

put lots of military units in a city to prevent it from going in to revolt. If you mouse over the culture slider, you can see the % chance of revolt. Just put in enough troops to make the percentage less than 1.

I think DArius will attempt a cultural victory in this game so you should plan accordingly. He has a massive military and 3 good culture cities. If he beats you to electricity + MM (and their wonders), you'll probably have a hard time dislodging his legendary cities without nukes.

I'll second the military units, but in addition you could change your civic from Nationhood to Free Speach for more culture.
And deal with the health problems in Hastings and Paris asap. (It won't help the revolts, but it'll keep them healthy - I really never get used to the white colour of England, makes it look like all the cities are stagnant.)

3) Don't think there's any hope for a cultural win, even if we beef up the culture, Darius will beat us on that I'm sure.
Dominition/conquest is definitely out, the AIs got us outnumbered, that many wars we can't afford, neither with money nor time.
Time is out, since Darius will probably have culture before that.
Which leaves us with Diplo and Space. With all those crazy people out there, I can't really picture a diplo.

So my suggestion is space the Sisiutil way: INTERNET! (Which would also solve some of our tech-problems.)
Physics you have, Electricity you have. Do the trades I spoke of in 1), set your slider to 100%, go Radio -> Computers; Build Internet, proceed as you see fit from there. Internet will eventually give you all the techs they have and you don't have.
After that, it's all a matter of and
(But don't neglect your army in the process, keep that powergraph rising and go to war only when needed.)

Good luck.

EDIT: Oh, and see if there's some way you can bribe the crazy critters out there to take Darius down a notch!

 

[ParadigmShifter]

If you are going to cottage everywhere you probably want biology soon.

 

[Carabodes]

If you are going to cottage everywhere you probably want biology soon.

I see your point, but what about holding off for a bit, and research biology while Internet is being built? So: Radio -> Computers -> Biology while running 100%, then put the slider back to correct your income.

It's a pity the others are so slow in their research, means that Corporations (and possibly Divine Right) will be the only immediat gain from Internet, as each tech has to be known by 2 other civs to be avaiable for us. Hopefully the others will catch up a bit when you sell them some techs, so we can have later gains from the Internet.

Now that I've reopened the thread, I noticed something more; Darius has Artillery - Is he going for Rocketry for spacerace next, or is he planning a war against somebody (or both )? Keep a very close eye on that man!

 

[madscientist]

Some very good discussions and suggestions here. Here are my thoughts on how we are to proceed.

1) Darius and Culture> I am playing at Marathon which requires 150000 to reach legondary status. Darius needs to be wtched certainly but not sure he's really a concern for culture at the moment.
2) A few things to point out. We do not have elctricity yet. Darius and Qin have a defensive pact.
3) I agree, space is the way to go. I like the idea of beelining the internet and I think I'll reviw some of Sis' space wins to refresh my memory..
4) I prefer the flight beeling at the moment (railroad/combustion/flight) for several reasons: it opens up rocketry, we can neglect artillery and the airforce more than protect us if we turle, We cna build airports which will ease the loss of one trade route by teching corporation.
5) Once we have flight I am looking at electricity/radio ... OK what is the tech path for computers and the internet on BTS. I mostly beeline refridgeration and superconductors.
6) I like the idea of trying to win without building cottages. We have done very well so far and this is a test to see if we can use the trade route throughout.

I'll resume this during the week.

Thanks for the input

 

[TRJS]

Agree with the Space goal.

The interent will be a nice strategy.

The airport route will indeed tie in well with the TE. However, perhaps focus only on the higher cities.

If not building cottages is it possible to shift focus from farm to production in more cities. That is build more workshops etc.

 

[Carabodes]

The shortest way to Internet is: Electricity -> Radio -> Computers.
I looked it up in the tech tree inside the game + refreshed my memory in Sisiutils thread, good idea of yours to do the same.

Why I proposed this lane to be the first is that the Internet takes a long time to build, so if you take that route first, you'll get Computers fairly early, and can do a lot of "filling up teching" while the Net is being built, and once you have it, you'll start getting techs for free

I see your point about flight though, both for offense, defense and traderoutes.

I'm not afraid of Darius and war, but I do fear he might out-tech you and win the race, or go completely cultural on you. My reason for trying to bribe somebody to go for him was simply to slow his teching down a bit, and at the same time keep that somebody preoccupied, forgetting you
EDIT (again): I read too fast, and overlooked your comment about Darius and Quin having defensive pact. That'll make bribing somebody to attack Darius impossible I think, so just keep an eye on him. (I really shoudn't be posting this early in the morning, I should let myself wake up first. )

 

[madscientist]

Seams Stalin hates Darius enough to keep declaring on his own. I may see if I can get a defensive pact myself, just to keep the other AIs guessing. Defense is an issue, my experience with Shaka is he will counter attack, even if tech deficient, hence teching flight. Remeber I have agressive AI on.

I need to get some more forges and get the ironworks built so I can the internet built there. I have to refresh my memory where all the national wonders are. I think the national epic is in Lonon, the heroic epic is in Hastings. Otherwise nothing else built. I do not think Oxford has been built yet.

Any ideas where to put the ironworks and out mega production center? The powerful economy of these seaside costal cities has the achilles heal of being low production. My two sites are London (I can up the power by running Beaurcracy later and I still have a Prophet I can settle), or York which would require the Maori statues also. I am looking at West Point in Hastings (setteld GGs, WP, drydocks, what a navy!!!). Also at what point do we go after corporation and assembly line which would certainly speed up the internet construction.

Finally, long term goal. IF we eventually get as good a navy as I envision from Hasting, we can declare war and harass the Persians late in the game. I late amphibious assault with tanks on the cultural cities can cause some serious damage to Darius.

 

[Carabodes]

Sorry, sorry, the errors I make when I'm still on my first cup of coffee, I'm so ashamed
I've overlooked the fact that Computers need Plastics to work! I think I'll hide deep into a dark corner.

So we want to aim for:
Electricity -> Radio -> PLASTICS -> Computers

We also want Flight, which is:
Steel -> Steampower -> Railroad -> Combustion -> Flight (which again should open for Rocketry -> Satelites)(flight also requires Physics which I assume you have)
Flight gives us fighters, Radio gives us bombers once we have flight.

And for Plastics and all the hammerproducing things:
Corporations -> Steampower -> Assemblyline -> Industrialism -> PLASTICS

For more bread and health we also need:
Biology -> Medicine
Biology -> Electricity -> Refrigeration

So let's see if I can manage to get this down to a (hopefully) reasonable suggestion (feel free to "cut the deck" as you (or others) see fit.):
Corporations (for the ) -> Steel -> Steampower (levees for your, oh so few, river cities) -> Railroad -> Combustion (-> Physics in case you don't have it) -> Flight (yeah, fighters, traderoute) -> Electricity (watermills +2, build some?) -> Radio (bombers, build Christo Redendor if you want to avoid the anarchies) -> Biology -> Refrigeration -> Medicine -> Assemblyline -> Industrialism -> Plastics -> Computers -> Rocketry -> Satelites -> ???

Where exactly to put the Biology-beeline I'm not sure, I just know we need them, green faces are not fun. If we delay this untill after computers, your cities will suffer.

If you don't have Physics, maybe you should go for that straight after Corps., in hope of getting the GS?

About Ironworks: My friend looked it up in the Civilopedia last time we played, and there it states that the 50% boost from iron and/or coal only applies for cities with direct access to the resource (has to be in the citys BFC). I don't know if that's really the case, but to be on the safe side, check it and act accordingly, we want as many hammers as we can get.

Wish I had a screenie of your domestic advisor, just to compare hammer output of your cities.

Maybe Hastings could benefit from having its 2 closest farms redone to watermills. That combined with levee would give more hammers (as well as the extra 2 that comes along with Electricity).

About Moai statues: You could of course give them to London as you suggest, but that city has relatively few watertiles, so the difference wouldn't be that great. Rheims have, from what I can see, the most watertiles and thus would benefit the most, building the Moai there might just make that city a decent third production city.

You also want a place for Oxford and Wall Street (too many national wonders, too few cities to put them in - sometimes I hate the 2 per city limit).

Your game makes me wish I had 3.13 installed, just so I could go in and check every little detail.

Enough rambling from me, I need a fresh cup of coffee before I start greatly enhancing my errors

 

[madscientist]

Yep, it's a more convoluted path than it appears.

Biology, Medicine, and refridgeration can be delayed a bit as every city has a harbor and the +3 health from clams/fish/crabs.

We have physics and steam power, teching RR. Combustion is next followed by Flight.

To tech plastics we first need corporation/assembly line/electricity/industrialization which also gets us tanks. Preferable to radio for electricity.

The thing is corporation obsoletes the great lighthouse, so while we gain 1 trade route from corp we lose 2 from the GL. So if we tech flight and build as airport in each city while teching corporation we should break even in trade outes.

Since the internet will be unavailable for a while, we have time for the ironworks and can wait until we have a factory/powerplant.

I think we will need 2 production powerhouses by the time we tech plastics, one for the 3-gorges Dam and the other for the internet. And somewhere we have to fit in the Apollo mission.

I apologize for the missing domerntic advisor, I thought I had a screensave of it but did not when I posted the recap.

 

[Carabodes]

We have physics and steam power, teching RR.

Very good, 2 (almost 3) problems solved.

- - - corporation obsoletes the great lighthouse, so while we gain 1 trade route from corp we lose 2 from the GL. So if we tech flight and build as airport in each city while teching corporation we should break even in trade outes.

Smart thinking, I like it

I apologize for the missing domerntic advisor,

After my grave error, you're more than easily forgiven , don't worry about it for a second.
(After all, you're not to blame for me being too stubborn to fiddle with patches, and then refuse to turn off random events/fiddle with .ini/.xml-files to make OOS go away )

And actually, this game of yours is teaching me heaps, I've never before spent so much time inside the tech-tree, you might just make me a future well-planning player. I greatly appreciate the time and effort you're investing.

 

[madscientist]

Thankyou
Just to qualify this is not the usual tech route I take. We made some adjustments to target the early wonders, target the navy, and delay the GL going obsolete.

 

[Silence101]

It's an interesting type of economy that you're playing. It's refreshing to see some newer ideas being tried. Beyond that, I don't have much to comment on. Good job, though.

 

[Carabodes]

It's not my usual tech route neither, that's part of what makes it interesting, preventin getting "set in my ways".

 

[madscientist]

RPC: SeaFaring Victoria Part

Most of this round was spent teching away, while we built up some infrastructure and watched the world burn arround us.

First, the relations of the world



Then a quick trade for some cash so we can run the science slider at 90%



And the city screen shot before we proceed.



During this time alot of the AIs decided to dogpile Shaka. I was invited on both sides but did not want to hurt our valued trade routes, so we passed.

Tech order was
railroad (Machine guns)
combustion (we not have destroyers since I built a fort on our sole resource).
Flight (Airports!)
Electricity (looking to open up industrialization and this is the last tech before corporation)
Corporation (Fairwell Oh beloved Great LIghthouse)
Assembly Line (Infantry, and most importantly factories)
Industrialization (Tanks! The ultimate diplomacy tool! We also have 1 source of Aluminum)
Plastics (4 turns shy because of the most recent event, see below)

During this time we also got a nice random event



Sweet, all costal cities now get +1 health and +2 hammers once drydocks are built (we have some but not complete)

On the world wars, Shaka spawns off Pacal as a colony, then soon capitulates to Chuckie.

Soon the battle horns ring again and we have ....



So me and Darius ar ethe only AIs at peace. Qin and Stalin are a decent match for Charles who I was concerned about getting too big.

The final city screenshot before the save.



And Powergraph numbers



And the last event at the save.



We popped a GE!!!! Now this opens up several things and I want everyone's opinion on how best to use him

1) GA: We have 1 prophet, 1 GE, 1 Great Artist. We can run probably one more GA either now or when we are producing space ship parts.
2) Save it for a wonder. The UN seams the only one. 2 techs, radio and mass media so we can be assured of getting it. Anyone think we can pull out a UN victory here?
3) Found the Mining corp: Amounts to +7 hammers, cost 4-5 gold per city. We would have a slight profit if built in London right now. I can built it elsewhere but will need to construct a stockexchange there.

So how to we utilize this very well timed GP? My guess is we get 3 more if we are first to fussion. Decent chance one may be a GA from Paris. Of couse Biuology may up that rate a bit.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I always save my golden age for when I am building the expensive space parts.

I'd use the GE for a wonder or the Ironworks if you haven't built it already. Statue of Liberty if that is available, ot probably isn't by now though.

I can't comment on the chances of a diplo win, who is the pop rival and what are the diplo relations like (glance screen, or did they remove that with the patch?).

 

[madscientist]

I always save my golden age for when I am building the expensive space parts.

I'd use the GE for a wonder or the Ironworks if you haven't built it already. Statue of Liberty if that is available, ot probably isn't by now though.

I can't comment on the chances of a diplo win, who is the pop rival and what are the diplo relations like (glance screen, or did they remove that with the patch?).

SOL is built already. IW is an idea, didn't think of that one.

I agree about teh GA.

Darius is my rival, but if Chuck can pull his pop up it may work. I gotta see what Darius' attitude is. MY guess is he would not vote for me.

Any opinion on Mining corp? 7 hammers per city can amke up for Darius tech lead in production.