RR13 - Hearts and Minds

[r_rolo1]

Finally with the system somewhat in order ...

Ok, SB is quite a PITA, isn't him ? And those barbs are quite inconvenient as well ...

To be honest, I'm more for D2. But i do not feel strongly on this, so feel free to toss arguments.

Tech wise:

- First, Oracle tech. CoL is probably a no brainer ( if we found a religion now, the most likely holy city is Vij ). Any other sugestion ?

-Second, and not for my set most likely, tech path. IW is on queue and I agree with it, but after ... Well, it depends Judaism is not founded yet, so no one has Mono ... and we need to go there IF we want to build the AP. OTOH we will surely need to build a economy , so trailing to Currency and maybe Alpha is needed. So which one is better?

BTW, if we found a religion, we need to work to get a shrine for it ... that will mess with our Gspies , but we can't have a cake and eat it

Anyway, I'll wait a little for input. I have other SG in queue before this anyway , so it is unlikely to play it before midnight GMT.

 

[nocho]

I'm inclined to go for D1 to flip that barb city asap, but don't feel too strongly about it either.

Definitely CoL from Oracle.

Are you actually proposing to self-tech theo for the AP? I'm inclined to think getting up the economy is slightly more important at this point.

 

[r_rolo1]

I'm just stating that , if we want to secure the AP, we need to get Theo, right ? And even if we want to buy theo, we need the prereq And that org rel is a nice civic

 

[LKendter]

Well Org Rel only is useful once we have a state religion.

As for D1 / D2 - I'm still 51 / 49 toss up. D2 IIRC the map is a stronger long term city, and uses everything up to the mountains. If the AI takes the barb city, we've trapped ourselves into a weaker city.
D2 will get use stone faster if we need it for a wonder.

Either city is fine with me for holy city, as they both need culture to pressure SB. I agree is will probably be "B", and that means that new city of his will suffer quickly.

I still vote for iron working ASAP. If we don't have bronze short-term, we need to find the iron.

Still a bit early to have to debate the AP run. Let us talk after another turn set.


Please check for open borders with other neighbors - I may have screwed up and not done this.

 

[lymond]

Hate to tech IW, but it does appear necessary for the metal and the fact that we have loads of green jungle up north to settle. We need to loads of workers.

SB is very unhappy with Indian-Indian borders

 

[r_rolo1]

SB is very unhappy with Indian-Indian borders

Indeed And he is not getting any happier

Anyway, I played up the set up to the end of IW. it was quiet enough ...

There was little to do in t0, so I simply clicked enter . And, as expected ...

Spoiler :

If you check the pics well, you will notice that SB started teching Mono. But that was not to be ...

Spoiler :

Later inspection showed that it was Zara that got it :/

BTW notice I've not adopted Confu yet ... and I haven't until the end of the set. There are some serious zealots around with self founded religions ( Brennus, Zara ), so i found it prudent ... even after SB having adopted Confu.

On other notes, founded the new city in D2:

Spoiler :

Lost one of our scouts ... fortunately it was not the woodie II one

Spoiler :

And met a new stooge ... dunno what to think of this. He can become a issue in the far future ...

Spoiler :

On the last turn, we discovered IW ... and we have iron in our cap BFC:

Spoiler :

On other news from the set end:

Spoiler :

I putted the first screen for 2 reasons:

-First, to show that we are 5 turns away of putting culture in 2 of the SB cities

-Second, because I shifted queues this turn to receive a chop to library and i forgot to put it back to the granary

The other 2 are pics of the known land around us. The more interesting point is the fact that there is a settler team of SB north of our holy city heading for the jungles :/

I guess this is a good time to discuss the techpath and if we really want to go AP. Given that Zara already has Mono, it is a matter of time until he goes Theo :/ other thing we need to discuss is settling spots in the northern jungles...

Roster

r_rolo1 - just played
Thy_Spellcraft - UP
nocho - on deck
lymond -
LKendter -

>>Save here<<
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[LKendter]

Bombay has turned into a nice shield city. 12 shields at size 4 is nice.
With Vijay being a holy city, I would like to cottage as much as possible. As of right now, this city is a very good possibility for Wall Street and a shrine.
Patal looks like a cottage city.

My one issue is NO settlers I/P. We can't afford to stop expanding.

I would like to propose another city - "F".
It won't be great, but it grabs furs and fish. It is 6 tiles from NA capitol, so it will help us get a flip city 3N eventually. Long-term this is a minimal building city that goes heavy on spies. We can always use more spies.


I would like to propose a temple after the library in Delhi. I hate useless angry faces. I would like to defer the courthouse there indefinitely. EP is the least of our concerns right now. We need more workers and more cities.

I want the iron on-line to start building real troops before SB turns on us. He is already annoyed over close borders. He won't sign open borders with us.
I thought I mentioned my screw up before Rolo's turn, but we still don't have open borders with the most civs.

We need to build north of "D2". That area seriously lacks food. Something as starting point to get the discussion going.


I would like to beeline to starting the AP. I already don't like our position, and I feel we need the AP to start getting things going back our way.

 

[lymond]

F is OK, but I'd really like to grab all that juicy green in the North.

We need to spread the worker love and get out a couple more workers asap. Delhi can do that, while Bombay builds some settlers. Delhi builds another settler after workers. We can use the unhappy citizen to whip 1 or the other. Don't forget roads to cities too.

Hopefully, Conf will spread to Bombay soon so we can quickly build a temple and run a priest. Might have a chance to bulb Theo in time or, if not, create our shrine. Priest wouldn't come until after Gspy in Delhi.

 

[LKendter]

"F" is for the resources, and to keep SB away from us. I know it isn't great, but we need to push SB away from us.

 

[r_rolo1]

LK, in spite of no queued settlers, my plan was to whip one or 2 in the next 5 turns. The cities have no whip anger so it is just a matter of swapping queues. In fact, most of the queues are placeholders ...

F is quite OK, but the green has priority ...

Just a point or two:

- Zara is eyeing the barb city, since he has a observing archer near it for quite a while ...

- The AP. I know I'm being a PITA, but we have to decide NOW if we want to try it. We still have to tech poly and mono before theo, so we have zero chance if we start later ....

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

Got it! I'm going to take a look at save this evening and will post some ideas.
About AP: I'm not convinced yet. In case we're going for it we'll need to convert to confu (or maybe christ after theo) and that could lead to some "problems".. Take rolo's reasons for not converting yet! And it would cost us quite some hammers that could be spent for some more settlers and workers.

 

[nocho]

I think I'll vote no on actively pursuing the AP. Too much research, too many hammers for a thing that we don't know will function very well. Last game it happened to work out but that's not a guarantee, as the AP religion should be rather spread out. With how the religions are falling I'm not so sure it would function equally well now.

 

[LKendter]

With how the religions are falling I'm not so sure it would function equally well now.

Very good point - I vote no on AP even though I was leaning that way initially.

In addition, we are no where close to the critical mass we need.

I would rather pop more settlers and get "F" and "Y" type cities going then build it. I really like "F" to cut off SB.

In addition, we need to get past cardboard cutouts for troops. We need to get to the point of building some axes and chariots (once we road to horses). Of course, we need more workers for some roads (yet another reason no AP).

Now to sign those open borders and hope confused spreads to a couple more AIs...

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

Here we go for a PPP:

As two more agree on not going for AP I'd leave it to be build by someone else.. So techwise I'd head towards currency, but I'm not sure whether via math or alpha. Math would bring the gardens and increase our chops but as we're going to expand a bit more I'd rather go for alpha!
Concerning further settling: F and Y are pretty good spots, but I'd rather take some jungle in the noth before someone else grabs it.. As I think SB will take the banana/cow/horse/cugar spot north of polynesian I'd go for 3N of stone. It has a lot of green titles and will get pigs somewhen. But as LK already stated: we need some proper defence against SB, so I'd only build another settler and one ore two workers. The rest should be troops!
What's about lymonds idea to get a priest up and running in bombay for some time to get a GP for the shrine?

 

[LKendter]

What's about Lymonds idea to get a priest up and running in Bombay for some time to get a GP for the shrine?

I would vote in favor of it.

Long-term income will be a pain with a ton of cities. Even if we don't do much to spread the religion for awhile it will help out. We can always have one of our lightweight cities (built later) on missionary duty. Add cottages to Vijay, and we have a natural target for Wall Street and good reason to get market, bank, etc built there.

 

[r_rolo1]

Yup, do it. We will need cash and a shrine is quite OK.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

I'm sorry for the possible delay, but I want to ask for a team consens: SB's settler didn't went for the triple sugar/Cow/banana/horse spot. So I'd go for a 3 pop whip in our cap and head towards this spot as long as it is untouched. Or is there any reson not to try?

Main reason for the question is more whether we want to take the risk in loosing turn moving the settler into the wrong direction..

And in case it's important for the desicion: SB settled on the hill 1NE from where you could see the party on rolo's last screen.

 

[LKendter]

Do we have spare escort?
More importantly, a clean path around the barb city?

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

There are two warriors in vija.. one could serve as escort!

 

[nocho]

I'm fine with you trying for that spot. The more land we can grab early, the better.