RR14 - Wa shaa Allah
- Thread starter r_rolo1
- Start date
r_rolo1
King of myself
Yup, we might forget about cosying up with the Eurotrash . They will never be our friends , so we have to deal with them with iron fist. OFC that doen't mean that we hae automatically to kill them ( we might get them to change religion ) , but we sure can't count with their friendship :/
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
at the roster slot
r_rolo1
King of myself
Yup, slotted in 
Good to see a 
face in the SG area again 
Good to see a face in the SG area again 
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Okay, here are some thoughts first:
1) We can make peace with Rag at no cost - he will give us 5 gold. It's possible that we might get to trade with him for a bit, as there is no -10 past history deal. With HR bonus and a brief switch to Christianity, we might be able to trade with him almost immediately. Pick up Engineering.
2) Conversely, I think OR has more benefit for us in the short term to get up much needed infra like grans, stables, and barracks. Plus, gold multipliers in shrine cities. So staying Islam would benefit in that regard. Need to spread more Islam and should eventually dedicated a city to the purpose. Maybe Mecca.
In OR we can basically whip units to complete buildings so serving the dual purposes of getting out an army and getting up infra. We can also get a quick mish out to Mansa.
3) I like using the GG now to upgrade a Scout medic or Super Camel Archer to unlock HE now. I prefer the medic but will go with the team decision.
4) However, this leads to the question of what city is best for HE. There is no obvious answer to this question as many of our cities are food and production poor. Some have hammer potential but little food to actually grow on those hammers. There are cities possible in the east with potential but that is kind of far from the arena we will focus on I think.
My idea is to use either Cairo or Baghdad. I lean to Cairo as the choice with Baghdad being our future Bureau Cap with cottages. In Cairo, we could watermill/workshop all the floodplains, to add to the hammers from quarries, hills, horses. I think it would be strong and also have the food to whip stuff in to ready the city. (By the way, I'm perplexed that we are improving the horse tile first over the wheat tile and flood plains).
Regardless, Cairo and Baghdad are our juggernaut cities and need immediate attention.
5) We obviously need workers bad, so I plan on whipping them in any city with 4 or more pop immediately. We just have to have them.
6) It would be nice to get a trade route going with Mansa as well for obvious reasons. Land route is best I think. We could get sea access around southern Africa, but that will take ages.
7) I'd like to finish India off pronto. I have no idea what they have in their last city. I think we should pull 2 or 3 CAs off Jerusalem now to help out in the East and then re-enforce Jerusalem later.
8) Let's not forget that we have Spiral so we should get up Islamic buildings as well.
9) Other than India, I see no real military action at present other than defending. However, we could go for various Barb cities like in the East. Depending on what survives against the remnants of India, we could use it on the barbs in southeast Asia or send them into Africa.
10) There's a fairly strong production city we can settle between Baghdad an Ghazni
Overall, we have a lot of cities and some nice shrine and wonders. However, we have very little infra and virtually no Army. I think the next TS or two should try to remedy that pronto.
edit: Looks like Rolo already started on watermills in Baghdad, so maybe the idea is to make that the HE city. The difference in that regard between Cairo and Baghdad is probably marginal, although I think Bag makes a better bureau cap and is more centrally located for the Palace. Still, I'm fine either way. (and with the forests we could chop out the HE quickly)
1) We can make peace with Rag at no cost - he will give us 5 gold. It's possible that we might get to trade with him for a bit, as there is no -10 past history deal. With HR bonus and a brief switch to Christianity, we might be able to trade with him almost immediately. Pick up Engineering.
2) Conversely, I think OR has more benefit for us in the short term to get up much needed infra like grans, stables, and barracks. Plus, gold multipliers in shrine cities. So staying Islam would benefit in that regard. Need to spread more Islam and should eventually dedicated a city to the purpose. Maybe Mecca.
In OR we can basically whip units to complete buildings so serving the dual purposes of getting out an army and getting up infra. We can also get a quick mish out to Mansa.
3) I like using the GG now to upgrade a Scout medic or Super Camel Archer to unlock HE now. I prefer the medic but will go with the team decision.
4) However, this leads to the question of what city is best for HE. There is no obvious answer to this question as many of our cities are food and production poor. Some have hammer potential but little food to actually grow on those hammers. There are cities possible in the east with potential but that is kind of far from the arena we will focus on I think.
My idea is to use either Cairo or Baghdad. I lean to Cairo as the choice with Baghdad being our future Bureau Cap with cottages. In Cairo, we could watermill/workshop all the floodplains, to add to the hammers from quarries, hills, horses. I think it would be strong and also have the food to whip stuff in to ready the city. (By the way, I'm perplexed that we are improving the horse tile first over the wheat tile and flood plains).
Regardless, Cairo and Baghdad are our juggernaut cities and need immediate attention.
5) We obviously need workers bad, so I plan on whipping them in any city with 4 or more pop immediately. We just have to have them.
6) It would be nice to get a trade route going with Mansa as well for obvious reasons. Land route is best I think. We could get sea access around southern Africa, but that will take ages.
7) I'd like to finish India off pronto. I have no idea what they have in their last city. I think we should pull 2 or 3 CAs off Jerusalem now to help out in the East and then re-enforce Jerusalem later.
8) Let's not forget that we have Spiral so we should get up Islamic buildings as well.
9) Other than India, I see no real military action at present other than defending. However, we could go for various Barb cities like in the East. Depending on what survives against the remnants of India, we could use it on the barbs in southeast Asia or send them into Africa.
10) There's a fairly strong production city we can settle between Baghdad an Ghazni
Overall, we have a lot of cities and some nice shrine and wonders. However, we have very little infra and virtually no Army. I think the next TS or two should try to remedy that pronto.
edit: Looks like Rolo already started on watermills in Baghdad, so maybe the idea is to make that the HE city. The difference in that regard between Cairo and Baghdad is probably marginal, although I think Bag makes a better bureau cap and is more centrally located for the Palace. Still, I'm fine either way. (and with the forests we could chop out the HE quickly)
r_rolo1
King of myself
I agree with keeping Islam as state religion ... besides any roleplay , the vast majority of our cities has Islam and we only have 2 christian cities for now . OR seems nice.
I'm strongly against the use of cottages in this game ... same reasons than with the other E1000 AD games we already played. The scenario has 320 turns and that makes most of the cottages unprofitable. More, Baghdad and Cairo ( the cities you are talking about ) IMHO scream for watermills/workshops ( and this even without SP ) ... BTW, I'm very skeptical of going Bureau with so many cities.
On HE, I would suggest Mecca ... if we do Moai there before, that is . The city will not get Wall Street anyway ( Jerusalem wins that handily ) and it has a good hammer setup.
I'm strongly against the use of cottages in this game ... same reasons than with the other E1000 AD games we already played. The scenario has 320 turns and that makes most of the cottages unprofitable. More, Baghdad and Cairo ( the cities you are talking about ) IMHO scream for watermills/workshops ( and this even without SP ) ... BTW, I'm very skeptical of going Bureau with so many cities.
On HE, I would suggest Mecca ... if we do Moai there before, that is . The city will not get Wall Street anyway ( Jerusalem wins that handily ) and it has a good hammer setup.
The Nº1 priority is to buff Jerusalem up. The city must be kept and it is in the invasion route from any idiot from the west that decides to attack us ( I fear Justinian ... ). We need to put there a couple of LBs ( better said, 4 + 2 pikes atleast ). We will most likely have to hunker down after taking India out ... there is a lot to do besides warring and anyway, if we get what we have in hands working properly, there is little in this map that can face us ( except China, but that depends of the luck GK has ).
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My concern is having some kind of means of research. I'm not sold on no cottages entirely. I definitely, as mentioned, like workshops/watermills in one of Cairo or Baghdad, but one of them would be great for cottages. Not sold on Mecca as a production Mecca or Maoi site. I think there are better options. Regardless, we need to get a big hammer site going soon.
Yeah, I have every intention of fortifying Jerusalem. I think we can do that and still get up some much need basic infra.
Should we get a scout over to the far east or let them come to us?
We could setup Baghdad as an HE Bureau cap. I don't see a huge advantage of Vass over Bureau in that regard and the only other civic in that line that we might use later is Nationalism.
What about specialists? Right now we don't really have strong cities for a gp farm...maybe something in the East later.
Yeah, I have every intention of fortifying Jerusalem. I think we can do that and still get up some much need basic infra.
Should we get a scout over to the far east or let them come to us?
We could setup Baghdad as an HE Bureau cap. I don't see a huge advantage of Vass over Bureau in that regard and the only other civic in that line that we might use later is Nationalism.
What about specialists? Right now we don't really have strong cities for a gp farm...maybe something in the East later.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Benares gives a decent GP farm after the jungle cut, but it will take a while...
On the eastern foes ... I'm pretty sure we will meet the Khmer soon enough. The rest is a little more random, but I would not lose my time making and sendind a scout. The issue is that we have little to sell techwise to the easterners ...
Again, I'm not sold on going Bureau for Baghdad as cap. We would still have to make the palace and prepare the city to get a good enough output to balance the most likely not cheap increase in maintenance on the rest of the Empire...
On research ... I hopefully expect to see us going Rep/Merc soon enough. Maybe even caste ...
On the eastern foes ... I'm pretty sure we will meet the Khmer soon enough. The rest is a little more random, but I would not lose my time making and sendind a scout. The issue is that we have little to sell techwise to the easterners ...
Again, I'm not sold on going Bureau for Baghdad as cap. We would still have to make the palace and prepare the city to get a good enough output to balance the most likely not cheap increase in maintenance on the rest of the Empire...
On research ... I hopefully expect to see us going Rep/Merc soon enough. Maybe even caste ...
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I took a quick look to start getting familiar with the scenario.
I agree 100% we need a lot more workers. To many resources to connect ignoring all other work.
I really see why Rolo wanted India - we don't just get a double holy city, but the shrines are already built. WOW
Though I thought Buddhism was founded further east...
One we start getting income multipliers in all those holy cities, income won't be an issue.
I agree 100% we need a lot more workers. To many resources to connect ignoring all other work.
I really see why Rolo wanted India - we don't just get a double holy city, but the shrines are already built. WOW
Though I thought Buddhism was founded further east...
One we start getting income multipliers in all those holy cities, income won't be an issue.
r_rolo1
King of myself
It looks I was not clear on this point ... ALL of the religions in this scenario already have their shrine build, including the ones that we haven't got yet ( the confu and the tao holy cities, that aree in northern China ). Jerusalem and Benares are the stronger ones, due to the double shrines
Since we had one, why not two ? 
Anyway, as India starts without LBs to defend ( only phants ), the action on India is far less costly if done swiftly , and Saladin starts with the means in hand ... so why not take a chance ?On the Budhism founding spot ... hard to pinpoint exactly, but Sidarta was from the area where Benares/Varanasi is . If I had to point a specific spot it would be where he meditaded under a fig tree ... that is actually not far from Benares in terms of the map we have in hand
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
What about putting the HE into one of the hammer rich European cities - Paris? The only problem is that we have to take it first.
r_rolo1
King of myself
To get to Europe proper, we need to either ( take it as a and/on ) :
a) Disembark through the Med
b) Take Russia out, then move west
c) Take Bizantium out, then move northwest
Due to the way naval combat normally goes in Civ IV before flight ( I take one, you take one ... ) and the non existing naval power in hand ( 1 galley ), a) is not a real option. b) is viable, but it opens the very dangerous possibility of Bizantium attacking us while our army is in Russia. That leaves c) ... but it will take a good bunch of time to get a operational army strong enough to tackle up those black riders of Mordor.
So, making HE in Europe will assume that we are willing to wait a while. I can live with that, but we want HE to get enough units ... so it seems to me somewhat counterproductive to get units enough to deal with the Eurotrash and then make the HE
a) Disembark through the Med
b) Take Russia out, then move west
c) Take Bizantium out, then move northwest
Due to the way naval combat normally goes in Civ IV before flight ( I take one, you take one ... ) and the non existing naval power in hand ( 1 galley ), a) is not a real option. b) is viable, but it opens the very dangerous possibility of Bizantium attacking us while our army is in Russia. That leaves c) ... but it will take a good bunch of time to get a operational army strong enough to tackle up those black riders of Mordor.
So, making HE in Europe will assume that we are willing to wait a while. I can live with that, but we want HE to get enough units ... so it seems to me somewhat counterproductive to get units enough to deal with the Eurotrash and then make the HE
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I played last night but was too tired to report, but did not expect to be distracted as long as I was today.
Here are the highlights/notes...sorry no pics this time, but I will in future TS:
note: I played about 20 turns. It was more than I planned to, but there were certain goals I wanted to achieve this TS and mainly set it up for more action in the subsequent TS's.
1) Took last Indian city by moving over a few CAs to the east. Actually was very lucky and beat a War Elephant straight up. Did lose 1 or 2 CAs though. Pull the rest back in time to meet some Spanish Knights and Cats which moved near Jerusalem, but actually went for Baghdad.
2) I dispatched Izzy's small army and made peace with her. We are still at war with HRE and it may be tough to make peace with them until will kill some units. However, Charlie has yet to really send any forces other than some galleys roaming around Tunis and pillaging fish. Tunis and Tripoli are very slow going. Made peace with Vikings first thing.
3) Whipped a bunch of workers, so we have quite a bit more. We can use more of course, but the land is getting improved. Mecca is pretty solid, as is Baghdad and Cairo.
4) Lot's of good infra up like forges, some CHs, barracks and a stable in Baghdad. Baghdad can focus mainly on CAs while Mecca and Cairo can get out other units like Pikes and stuff. Sending most units to Jerusalem. City has not really been in danger the whole TS. Just might attack but I have not seen any big stacks lurking.
5) Met China, Khmer and Wang. Made some tech trades to get Edu and Gunpowder and a map. Hopefully we will win Lib. I think we should trade for Optics and Banking right now with Mansa for Gunpowder/60g and take Astro with Lib. Get out some ships and win circum.
6) Justin keeps getting vassals which is concerning. Khmer is a bit of surprise. Russia is very concerning. Mansa was his vassal for some time but just broke away. We should look to peace vassal Mansa asap. I few more units should do it. I started EP focus on Mansa but that would be irrelevant if we vassal him, so I guess we should change it. Not sure who though.
7) Although I got a few units out - mainly for Jerusalem, I have not focus on amassing a strike force. That may be something we can start doing soon. Attacking Byz will be a problem though with Russia and Khmer on both sides.
8) Don't forget Islamic buildings for extra gold. I got a few up or in process. I made a play for Sankore - weakly - but it went quick.
9) Note that I've set up some units in cities for optimal whippage - like a Pike in Jerusalem which can go into a Grocer. However, I wanted to let the city grow a bit before whipping. We should look to set up 2-poppers like this to take advantage of OR and get up infra quick, while still getting out units.
Here are the highlights/notes...sorry no pics this time, but I will in future TS:
note: I played about 20 turns. It was more than I planned to, but there were certain goals I wanted to achieve this TS and mainly set it up for more action in the subsequent TS's.
1) Took last Indian city by moving over a few CAs to the east. Actually was very lucky and beat a War Elephant straight up. Did lose 1 or 2 CAs though. Pull the rest back in time to meet some Spanish Knights and Cats which moved near Jerusalem, but actually went for Baghdad.
2) I dispatched Izzy's small army and made peace with her. We are still at war with HRE and it may be tough to make peace with them until will kill some units. However, Charlie has yet to really send any forces other than some galleys roaming around Tunis and pillaging fish. Tunis and Tripoli are very slow going. Made peace with Vikings first thing.
3) Whipped a bunch of workers, so we have quite a bit more. We can use more of course, but the land is getting improved. Mecca is pretty solid, as is Baghdad and Cairo.
4) Lot's of good infra up like forges, some CHs, barracks and a stable in Baghdad. Baghdad can focus mainly on CAs while Mecca and Cairo can get out other units like Pikes and stuff. Sending most units to Jerusalem. City has not really been in danger the whole TS. Just might attack but I have not seen any big stacks lurking.
5) Met China, Khmer and Wang. Made some tech trades to get Edu and Gunpowder and a map. Hopefully we will win Lib. I think we should trade for Optics and Banking right now with Mansa for Gunpowder/60g and take Astro with Lib. Get out some ships and win circum.
6) Justin keeps getting vassals which is concerning. Khmer is a bit of surprise. Russia is very concerning. Mansa was his vassal for some time but just broke away. We should look to peace vassal Mansa asap. I few more units should do it. I started EP focus on Mansa but that would be irrelevant if we vassal him, so I guess we should change it. Not sure who though.
7) Although I got a few units out - mainly for Jerusalem, I have not focus on amassing a strike force. That may be something we can start doing soon. Attacking Byz will be a problem though with Russia and Khmer on both sides.
8) Don't forget Islamic buildings for extra gold. I got a few up or in process. I made a play for Sankore - weakly - but it went quick.
9) Note that I've set up some units in cities for optimal whippage - like a Pike in Jerusalem which can go into a Grocer. However, I wanted to let the city grow a bit before whipping. We should look to set up 2-poppers like this to take advantage of OR and get up infra quick, while still getting out units.
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I think Mecca can alternate between units and Islamic mishes. We should get all our cities first and then focus on the AIs. The Eastern AIs might be easier since we have open borders. I've read somewhere about gifting mishes in caravels within AI borders, but not sure if that works. The Euros will be tough.
r_rolo1
King of myself
To be honest, I do not think we should even care with trying to get the Euros to go Islam. They will need a lot of buttering to even go annoyed on us ( so, we will get most likely a "worst enemy" denial on anything we want from them ), getting them to get enough Islam to revolt themselfes is not a failsafe path and it would need a very high missionary count and trying to force Islam on them by military means would be as hard as taking them down.
So my vote goes to kill the Euros and try to be reasonable with the eastern civs ( except maybe China ) ...
Anyway, and getting back to the save in hand, we actually have no vote in this , since Justinian is in hands full and , unless they got there during the AP forced truce, we are most likely the target. 2 front wars are not good, but the Khmer are weak enough ... maybe we should consider to make a hostile takeover on SE Asia
On religions, spreading Islam is good and all, but we also need to spread Christianity, that is the AP religion ...
Ok, I think it is time to show up a new roster:
r_rolo1
lymond -just played
ruff_hi - UP
nocho - on deck
LKendter
So my vote goes to kill the Euros and try to be reasonable with the eastern civs ( except maybe China ) ...
Anyway, and getting back to the save in hand, we actually have no vote in this , since Justinian is in hands full and , unless they got there during the AP forced truce, we are most likely the target. 2 front wars are not good, but the Khmer are weak enough ... maybe we should consider to make a hostile takeover on SE Asia
On religions, spreading Islam is good and all, but we also need to spread Christianity, that is the AP religion ...
Ok, I think it is time to show up a new roster:
r_rolo1
lymond -just played
ruff_hi - UP
nocho - on deck
LKendter
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
Sorry guys - going to need a skip this round.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Ok, will see if nocho can play this week ...
r_rolo1
King of myself
Bah, is everyone balking out ? :/
LK, if you can , could you pick it ?
LK, if you can , could you pick it ?
