RR15 - Mills for D. Quixote

[vranasm]

lurker:

I think AH->writing with TW on the way somewhere should be better path then pottery (no cottages)

the land is pretty mediocre honestly... the only really good spot is like 9 tiles far from capital and even if there is some food 8 tiles south from capital it will be very similar to the western situation.

In situation like this I always think about getting some better land from neighbors, thus checking for horses and quick HA rush steamed with libraries comes to mind (and when we're at it HBR is also needed for WE's).

IW and calendar are obvious great choices for the land around and since you're on monarch you will probably have to invest your own beakers into it.

I would forget about fishing for now...check horses and if they are available, 2/3 cities HA rush (writing based) seems optimal (if they are in position to share food with capital...you have there 2 corns anyway).

 

[timmy827]

If we decide to rush Toku, I'd prefer using axes to HA.

Of course a dedicated rush means we expect to miss any plans involving pyramids or oracle. Doesn't have to be decided immediately but likely by the time settler is done.

 

[vranasm]

If we decide to rush Toku, I'd prefer using axes to HA.

Of course a dedicated rush means we expect to miss any plans involving pyramids or oracle. Doesn't have to be decided immediately but likely by the time settler is done.

lurker

ok you're on Monarch so some things are a bit different, but I would explain my point of view anyway ;-).

I briefly counted the toku's capital distance and it should be around 12 tiles away, so the maintenance will be pretty high.
It's 12 turns for axes to even get to the enemy capital (6 with roads), where HA's need 6-8 turns (depending on the blocking jungle and spreading) (3 with roads).

HBR offers good trade value if you happen to get more trading partners (not excluded). If you decide that HA's are not option (no horses) you still have back up plan involving elephants.
You could bulb math with GS while teching HBR then currency+constr (in order depended on your will) and do 400BC-1AD classic rush which should be on Monarch absolutely devastating with good chance that AI's will clear the jungle for you.

Due to the distances involved I consider Alphabet/Currency as mandatory techs before attacking your neighbors. Something that surely can't happen with pure axe rush.

 

[lymond]

If we decide to rush Toku, I'd prefer using axes to HA.

ummm...you'll have to explain that one to me. HAs are superior to any non-UU unit in the BCs, especially against Protective AIs.

 

[timmy827]

The team can and should discount me as I'm inexperienced, never done a HA rush besides a rather cooked map.

vranasm, thanks for the additional detail. The point about waiting for the AI to hack some jungle is definitely something I overlooked.

My thought process favoring axes over horse archers (besides having copper at capital
With these variant rules, the classical era seems like when we'd be weakest with very few improved tiles, in contrast to an axerush (when, in a normal game, the cities aren't working much beyond their bonus resources anyways). In other words, I'd broadly expect our productivity vs. the AI to be close in the beginning, fall behind from ~800BC -> 1000AD, catch up as we get the key mill and workshop techs. Thus I'd expect better from early axes than a classical era war.

In particular, I don't think a elepult war sounds all that appealing. It's a fair bit to tech with no cottages and (as yet visible) no strong commerce tiles.

 

[vranasm]

lurker

I would recommend you strategy articles section for reading a little bit on the HA rush, it's thread made by vicawoo and it's best guide how to approach HA rush. There is even some math if you give it time...

Library (scientists) based beelines without cottages are now well established strategies thanks to AbsoluteZero's videos (there can be case for cottaging capital with sharing tiles with city 2-3). There is no problem with 3-4 city break out either HA's or WE's+cats... you just abuse slavery like theres no tomorrow.

Since you will have monarch maintenance I could see that you would go with 5 city rush, but then there is complication with settlers stalling growth of cities for too long. other thing being I don't see there good 5 cities I would like to break out from...

 

[r_rolo1]

To be honest I was not planning to do any war before Cats + Phants ...

 

[lymond]

Ok...I played until we popped out the first settler

Spoiler :

China done be close...yikes!

Spoiler :

I like cow rice next and then quickly get out another settler (2 pop whip into a worker) to grab the cow which should almost box in Qin. I like settling on the PH for the lone cow, but 1N of cow would be a full block.

I say we rex it pretty hard initially to grab these spots. The jungle spot we can rest the settler and use the woody warrior to scout for incoming Jap settlers. Try not to settle it as long as possible since there's not much we can do with that spot until IW, but it will be nice later after Machinery.

Warrior will finish in 1t to allow us to grow the same turn to size 5. Then start a settler.

1 or 2 workers will be sufficient I Think for some time as we simply don't have a lot of worker turns early except maybe roads.

I took a risk and attacked a panther to get Woody...ha..finally lucky for once.

Copper has been pre-roaded

Horse reveal may alter settling plans.

Use scout to spawnbust now.

We want to get 2 cities running 2 scientists asap. Cow/rice will be good for this as well as cap. Again, fishing should be avoided, so the seafood spots we can either park settlers are just use the workable tiles.

 

[vranasm]

lurker

wow... unless there is some big chunk of land bellow china's capital there will be some big border tension and probably china will attack in BC's out of desperation (if they get BFC copper/iron)

the distances are so small that you probably can clear your "continent" in BC's with HA's or early AD's with WE's+cats (if the AI's will be dumb enough and give you enough time).

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

This is just pure random guessing, but I think China's pretty well isolated down there. However, Japan probably has some people to the left. Even so, I'd want to take out Japan first, before he can really make use of his Protective trait.

 

[vranasm]

This is just pure random guessing, but I think China's pretty well isolated down there. However, Japan probably has some people to the left. Even so, I'd want to take out Japan first, before he can really make use of his Protective trait.

lurker

on Monarch he already makes use of his Pro trait since he has Archery available. so if you go with axes I would put my bet at facing 2-3 archers per city depending on phase of expansion you will hit, but as I understand it rolo and L are against axe rush (which I definitely agree with).

 

[timmy827]

Quick comments: I think lymond's blocking plan sounds good, agree with the lurkers it looks like China can only settle towards us while Japan has a better chance of settling west

Not sure which location for the 3rd city of those lymond presented. Normally I'd think the PH would be fine - enough of a block to keep Qin from going past - but I'm also not experienced with having an AI so boxed in as we are planning with Qin.

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok, I've been "scouting" the map via sounds ( some of you already know about this way of getting more intel ) and indeed China appears to not have any land south of it while Japan definitely has more land to the west ... in fact I would say that we are in a rather small penisula east of a pangea-like continent with Japan blocking us from the rest of it.

That said, and in spite of understanding lymond reasoning, I'm somewhat thorn in setting to block China. The blocking spots are horrid for our variant ( one of them having a plains cow as ONLY improve-able tile ) and I'm worried that we might be crippling ourselves by trying to box QSH :/ ... I still think that our city #2 should have as much resources as possible to help cope our handicap and lymond dotmap cities somewhat fail on that regard ( the SW city is OK in food but lacks prod , the S city is plainly bad ) and i don't see any blocking option that is better in that regard

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Clever rolo... I had never even considered the idea of using the ambient sounds to scout the map! If that's the case, then we might want to wait to deal with China - Japan is the important threat, because if we take out Japan, we can expand to the west with ease. As for the blocking, well, you certainly don't want to take resource-poor areas first! Without cottages, farms, OR mines, those cities are pretty much going to be what they start with until Metal Casting or Machinery, and let's face it - workshops aren't much good without a lot of ambient food around! (Until State Property anyway, which is pure GOD in this variant) In short, we want to get city spots that are naturally good, because city spots that are naturally ungood are going to stay ungood until at least Metal Casting, and more likely Machinery. And that's doubleplusungood.

 

[LKendter]

Am I up? Haven't caught a roster post.

 

[r_rolo1]

My fault ...

Roster

r_rolo1
nocho
lymond - just played
LKendter - UP
IdiotsOpposite - On deck
timmy827

 

[lymond]

Rolo - granted my dotmap is only a suggestion, but I'm not sure I agree with what your saying. Or you will have to explain it in more detail to me. What exactly do you consider workable tiles?

First, we have to go by the land that we are given. My first suggestion did mention blocking Qin, but I suggested it as I actually think it is best city to settle first into terms of workable tiles. (Not including simply settling close to the cap and sharing tiles or actually teching fishing and settling the seafood spots).

You basically have improved resources like food at this point and other than any strat resources we find - like the copper, your best production tiles are plains forest, forested grass hills or plains hills.

The southwest city has grass cows and rice plus some forest for production. Additional, it has enough food to run scientists early in another city. Plus, it will be a fine city later.

As for the lone plains cow, I think it is actually better due to the variant not worse. Without the variant, I probably would not settle the city. However, based on what we can actually do early it will be one of our better production sites with plains cow, center tile, and the plains forests. Great for settler/worker production and early units - minimal whipping.

You say "the only improvable tile", but tell me what else is out there to settle that is improvable. The jungle is completely prohibitive at this point. The plains cow is immediate production and food

Plus, all these cities are in a reasonable distance from our cap.

Honestly, I'm quite confused about your comments as I don't really see anything better. I don't see a city spot with tons of these improve resources that you mention that is in a reasonable distance. (granted though, if horse pop up that will be a priority) My suggestions were completely based on the variant, not what I would usually do.

 

[lymond]

Clever rolo... I had never even considered the idea of using the ambient sounds to scout the map! If that's the case, then we might want to wait to deal with China - Japan is the important threat, because if we take out Japan, we can expand to the west with ease. As for the blocking, well, you certainly don't want to take resource-poor areas first! Without cottages, farms, OR mines, those cities are pretty much going to be what they start with until Metal Casting or Machinery, and let's face it - workshops aren't much good without a lot of ambient food around! (Until State Property anyway, which is pure GOD in this variant) In short, we want to get city spots that are naturally good, because city spots that are naturally ungood are going to stay ungood until at least Metal Casting, and more likely Machinery. And that's doubleplusungood.

Actually IO, I find what you are saying to be contradictory to the variant. We need immediate results now. For one, the grass cow/rice city is not resource poor at all and will be great later. Yeah, in a normal game settling the plains cow as such would not be good (trust me, I'm all about the food), but for our purpose it is immediate production. It will never be a whip city, but it will a pretty nice production city later with watermills, windmills and workshops - plus State Prop.

I'm seeing critiques of my suggestions - in a vacuum so to speak - without offering tangible solutions. Just where the heck do we place cities? The bottom line is that our overall food/prod/commerce is going to be nerfed in the early game. We can only improve resources, so pretty much any food or hammer resource is "gold" for us in the early game.

Just note IO and Rolo, that my city suggestions were not so much about "blocking" Qin, but rather making sure we grab city sites from him that can actually be productive based on the variant. I kinda regret using the term "blocking" now.

The East is all jungle. We can do absolutely nothing with it now and settling all the way to the corn/ivory is absurd and it is not even really any better for us the cow/rice.

 

[LKendter]

I loaded the game, and we have a settler ready to go.

However, we seem to have zero agreement on city #2. Do I need to post a dot map to get discussions going?
Between China choke, and the variant restrictions we can't afford a mistake in settling. Not playing until we have an agreement.

 

[lymond]

Well, I posted a dotmap above, but no one has offered up any alternatives - including yourself.