Ruleset Discussion

[Ginger_Ale]

Cyc, I'm not quite sure how you can put together a map using text/characters (yes, this is what is meant by verbal ("words")) that looks just as good as an in-game image. Sure it may be readable, but that doesn't mean it is convenient or looks just as good. What the rule is trying to say is basically that if you want to be able to trade screenshots/maps rather than having to spend time making word-based ones, research Map Making. If you want to be stuck with those ugly text maps, well, it's your call. We had to cover text descriptions and text maps somehow, and this is how it seemed to work the best.

 

[Robi D]

Given that we have pushed trading maps forward to Map Making why not just say no trading of any types of maps or directions until one team has MM.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Robi D, although it's not written in the rules, it'll most likely happen this way. By the times teams start meeting each other, I wouldn't be surprised if one of them had Map Making, or at least one tech away, at Writing, so I don't think this will be a major issue anyhow.

 

[Robi D]

Robi D, although it's not written in the rules, it'll most likely happen this way. By the times teams start meeting each other, I wouldn't be surprised if one of them had Map Making, or at least one tech away, at Writing, so I don't think this will be a major issue anyhow.

I was thinking the same, which is why i don't see the point quibbling over this. That why i suggested just making a hard and fast rule with no grey area.

 

[donsig]

I was thinking the same, which is why i don't see the point quibbling over this. That why i suggested just making a hard and fast rule with no grey area.

There would be even less quibbling if we just allowed screenshots to be traded from the get go. If we did I doubt we'd see teams sending off screenshots of their starting locations. As I said before screenshots can be manipulated and it is only maps traded within the Civ III game that can really be trusted.

I do however agree with the General that any rule we make should not have grey areas.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

1.0 - Game Information
1.1 - The Save
All teams are required to play the save within 24 hours, unless they request an extension in the Turn Tracker thread. After playing the save, they must send it to the next team via email. Additionally, the turnplayer must post in the Turn Tracker thread to indicate the save has been sent. The next team's 24 hours begins after said post.

1.2 - Battle Logs
Teams are required to send a battle log to the team(s) they attack during their turn, indicating what units attacked, and what the result was. This includes bombardments as well. A sample line could read: "4HP Rifleman attacks 3HP Mustketman - Rifleman wins, still 4HP".

1.3 - Punishment
The game administrators are responsible for handing out punishment after a violation of a rule. Punishment may be limited to one single player or the team, but it will not be overly harsh or cruel. It could include forced anarchy, forced payment of gold, removal from the team forum for a period of time, or other actions. If a team feels it is unfair, they may appeal the decision.

1.4 - Clarifications
If a team would like to ask the administrator's approval for an action they want to undertake to see if it is against the rules or not, they may PM the administrators and get their interpretation. It is advised that if a team is in doubt, they ask the administrators and get a clarification.

1.5 - Refugees
After a team has been eliminated from the game, its members may apply to become members of another team still active. They are free to share any information they have with their new team.

1.6 - Acceptable Utilities
The following out-of-game utilities are allowed: CivAssist II (v2.0.2387) and MapStat (v2.11.0). When using these programs, please use the latest version. If you would like to use a utility that is not on those list, or a new version of an approved utility, please contact the administrators.

2.0 - Banned Exploits
2.1 - Coordinated Capturing of Units
It is prohibited for teams to capture and recapture each turn units such as workers, catapults, and other non-combat units for the intent of using them twice in a turn against another team.

2.2 - Leader Sacrifices
Teams are not allowed to intentionally provide another team with units for the purpose of generating a Military Great Leader.

2.3 - Contact Trading
Contact trading in-game is allowed at Writing. While a team may send emails to any discovered teams, regardless of whether or not they have Writing, out-of-game contact between undiscovered teams may not occur unless they meet in-game or another team (with Writing) sells the contact to another team.

2.4 - Map Trading
Screenshots and visual maps cannot be traded between teams until Map Making is researched. After that, teams are free to trade screenshots as a normal trade item. Verbal maps (descriptions of the terrain, however detailed, as long as no images are involved) are allowed without any prerequisite.

2.5 - City Trading and Misleading Naming
Teams are not permitted to trade cities with the intent of teleporting units. Teams cannot name or rename cities or units with the names of technologies, resources, maps, units, or gold, nor can they rename units to pass them off as another unit type to confuse the other teams. If in doubt, teams should contact the administrators about their proposed name.

2.6 - Reloading
Reloading the save because of unfavorable outcomes or events is not allowed. If you are playing the save and the game crashes on you, it is permitted to load the save again, but please notify the administrators as well.

2.7 - Save Manipulation
Using any utility for the purpose of altering the game save or a game event is prohibited.

2.8 - Build Sequence
Teams cannot break into the build sequence to change anything, including actions such as hurrying production of a building/unit, changing prebuilds to the desired build, changing city laborers around to prevent a riot, and changing any build to another build (say, from a factory to a rifleman due to nearby enemy units). Instead of taking these actions during the build sequence before your turn, please make these changes during your turn. If a team is wondering whether something would be considered breaking into the build sequence, please contact the administrators.

2.9 - Ships' Visibility
It is not allowed to use up all of a ship's movement points and then press Fortify All, which will fortify not only the units in the boat, but also the boat itself, giving increased visibility on the next turn.

2.10 - Double Tile Usage
Scrolling through the city screens in the pre-turn for the purpose of shifting tiles around so that two cities can use the same tile in one turn or for the purpose of changing tiles so that a city can work two sets of tiles in one turn, say, high commerce tiles, and then high production tiles, is prohibited.

2.11 - Auto Go-To
Units can get double movement (as the second turn of movement happens earlier than it should) if the auto go-to command is used for distances over 1 turn. Do not use go-to commands for over 1 turn of distance.

2.12 - Negative Spending
Teams may not have a negative income which would put their treasury below zero gold, at the expense of just a few units or buildings, in order to gain advantages, such as running full science, which they could not normally afford with their regular income. Although having a negative income is permissible, perhaps to finish research of a technology one turn quicker, exploiting the game in the aforementioned manner, in a way that the disbanding of units and buildings does not make up for the commercial gains, is not allowed.






Any last comments?

 

[Chamnix]

I'll try one more time... I feel strongly that breaking into the build sequence to change from wealth to production or to react to game events is an exploit that should be banned.

The simplest way to prevent this is to ban breaking into the build sequence at all.

The next simplest way is to say breaking into the build sequence is OK only for the purpose of hiring additional specialists (so people can prevent riots).

If people insist on being able to change builds in general in the pre-turn, then I'll leave it to someone else to try to craft a rule that can't be exploited.

 

[ThERat]

list looks good, agree with chamnix, breaking into the build sequence should only be allow to prevent riots or change production (such as finish a prebuild)

 

[peter grimes]

...or change production (such as finish a prebuild)

I thought this was specifically the exploit that should be prevented

 

[Ginger_Ale]

To me, Chamnix's post is about changing around tiles to get high commerce AND high shields, whereas you two are talking about whether or not you can change the build queue (and sliders).

Chamnix: Say we leave in the ability to react to riots, change builds, etc. Would this edited rule cover your complaint about changing tiles?

2.10 - Double Tile Usage
Scrolling through the city screens in the pre-turn for the purpose of shifting tiles around so that two cities can use the same tile in one turn or for the purpose of changing tiles so that a city can work two sets of tiles in one turn, say, high commerce tiles, and then high production tiles, is prohibited.

I don't see what's wrong with changing cities to react to something such as riots - I don't see it as an exploit. Taking advantage of the game to do something you normally can't do (get high commerce and high production from 2 sets of tiles) = exploit. Doing something you normally can do (changing the build queue) = not an exploit. I don't think the timing of it makes it an exploit.

 

[donsig]

2.5 and 2.8 should be combined. I also don't like the use of renaming. Bad taste in my mouth from last game. Should the rule be against naming cities and units? After all, isn't naming a city Horses or Iron or Medicine (without ever renaming it) just as much a problem? Here is my attempt:

2.5 - City Trading and city and unit names
A)Teams are not permitted to trade cities with the intent of teleporting units.
B)Teams cannot name or rename cities or units as technologies or resources or maps or units or gold, nor can they rename units to try and pass them off as another unit type to confuse the opponent. If teams are not sure if a city name is valid under this rule they should check with the admins before using that name.

This frees up 2.8 for another use:

The Build Queue
Breaking into the build sequence is not allowed for any reason.

The only convincing arguement I've heard for allowing this at all is to prevent riots because the governor does this. So why don't we just prevent breaking into the build sequence for any reason and let teams use the governor if they want to prevent last minute riots?

I don't see what's wrong with changing cities to react to something such as riots - I don't see it as an exploit.

Chamnix has a point though - breaking into the build sequence to react to something that happened since your last turn seems like an exploit. I think that if your cities riot because you lost a lux then they riot because you lost a lux. Why should you be able to hire last minute specialists?

 

[Chamnix]

GingerAle’s proposed rule eliminates the worst part of the exploit, but it does leave 3 options still:

1. Some towns could build wealth, then be changed to something productive during the pre-turn (not as game-breaking, but still an exploit).
2. The example from last game of switching a town to walls based on enemy movement isn’t covered.
3. It’s one thing to flip a prebuild and have something complete naturally, but I don’t think you should be allowed to hurry production to complete something in the pre-turn.

I’m not incredibly concerned about the possibility of flipping a prebuild on the turn of completing a tech – I don’t see any particular reason it should be banned, but I also don’t see any particular reason why it must be allowed. If you are not allowed to do it, then you flip your prebuild one turn later instead – it has no real effect on the game. That was the rule for MTDG I (old rule 3.2), and I can’t think of a single time it was an issue. The reason I have continued to suggest no breaking into the build sequence at all (or only to hire new specialists) is that it is the simplest way of preventing exploits while having no significant effect on gameplay. If people are adamant about keeping the ability to flip prebuilds the turn they complete a tech, then the rule must be more complicated. Simple is better.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Please check the updated 2.5 and 2.8.

 

[donsig]

Please check the updated 2.5 and 2.8.

In 2.8 I think include actions such as should be including actions such as or including, but not limited to, actions such as.

 

[Cyc]

Thank you, GA.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

PaperBeetle, over in the GOTM/COTM Forum, has found a pair of exploits with civil engineers and rushing units. As you know, civil engineers can only be used to build improvements... but if you use engineers to mostly build an improvement, and then rush the rest... you can switch to a unit and not lose the shields!!

The second exploit is that if you partly build an improvement, then rush it, then switch to another building, the shields for the engineers gets counted again!

Obviously, the 2nd one needs to be banned - double shields is just an exploit.

What about the first? It seems like an exploit to me...

 

[Whomp]

Agreed Automated Teller.

One more add on I would suggest is turnplayers should not have "always renegotiate deals" in their preferences.

I'm not sure if this and noaipatrol should be for the first team of last team playing the save.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Those are clearly exploits, AutomatedTeller; I'll add them in later tonight, and hopefully we can start polling this within the week.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

1.0 - Game Information
1.1 - The Save
All teams are required to play the save within 24 hours, unless they request an extension in the Turn Tracker thread. After playing the save, they must send it to the next team via email. Additionally, the turnplayer must post in the Turn Tracker thread to indicate the save has been sent. The next team's 24 hours begins after said post.

1.2 - Battle Logs
Teams are required to send a battle log to the team(s) they attack during their turn, indicating what units attacked, and what the result was. This includes bombardments as well. A sample line could read: "4HP Rifleman attacks 3HP Mustketman - Rifleman wins, still 4HP".

1.3 - Punishment
The game administrators are responsible for handing out punishment after a violation of a rule. Punishment may be limited to one single player or the team, but it will not be overly harsh or cruel. It could include forced anarchy, forced payment of gold, removal from the team forum for a period of time, or other actions. If a team feels it is unfair, they may appeal the decision.

1.4 - Clarifications
If a team would like to ask the administrator's approval for an action they want to undertake to see if it is against the rules or not, they may PM the administrators and get their interpretation. It is advised that if a team is in doubt, they ask the administrators and get a clarification.

1.5 - Refugees
After a team has been eliminated from the game, its members may apply to become members of another team still active. They are free to share any information they have with their new team.

1.6 - Acceptable Utilities
The following out-of-game utilities are allowed: CivAssist II (v2.0.2387) and MapStat (v2.11.0). When using these programs, please use the latest version. If you would like to use a utility that is not on those list, or a new version of an approved utility, please contact the administrators.

1.7 - Turnplayer Preferences
Turnplayers for a team must have "Always Renegotiate Deals" off in their preferences.

2.0 - Banned Exploits
2.1 - Coordinated Capturing of Units
It is prohibited for teams to capture and recapture each turn units such as workers, catapults, and other non-combat units for the intent of using them twice in a turn against another team.

2.2 - Leader Sacrifices
Teams are not allowed to intentionally provide another team with units for the purpose of generating a Military Great Leader.

2.3 - Contact Trading
Contact trading in-game is allowed at Writing. While a team may send emails to any discovered teams, regardless of whether or not they have Writing, out-of-game contact between undiscovered teams may not occur unless they meet in-game or another team (with Writing) sells the contact to another team.

2.4 - Map Trading
Screenshots and visual maps cannot be traded between teams until Map Making is researched. After that, teams are free to trade screenshots as a normal trade item. Verbal maps (descriptions of the terrain, however detailed, as long as no images are involved) are allowed without any prerequisite.

2.5 - City Trading and Misleading Naming
Teams are not permitted to trade cities with the intent of teleporting units. Teams cannot name or rename cities or units with the names of technologies, resources, maps, units, or gold, nor can they rename units to pass them off as another unit type to confuse the other teams. If in doubt, teams should contact the administrators about their proposed name.

2.6 - Reloading
Reloading the save because of unfavorable outcomes or events is not allowed. If you are playing the save and the game crashes on you, it is permitted to load the save again, but please notify the administrators as well.

2.7 - Save Manipulation
Using any utility for the purpose of altering the game save or a game event is prohibited.

2.8 - Build Sequence
Teams cannot break into the build sequence to change anything, including actions such as hurrying production of a building/unit, changing prebuilds to the desired build, changing city laborers around to prevent a riot, and changing any build to another build (say, from a factory to a rifleman due to nearby enemy units). Instead of taking these actions during the build sequence before your turn, please make these changes during your turn. If a team is wondering whether something would be considered breaking into the build sequence, please contact the administrators.

2.9 - Ships' Visibility
It is not allowed to use up all of a ship's movement points and then press Fortify All, which will fortify not only the units in the boat, but also the boat itself, giving increased visibility on the next turn.

2.10 - Auto Go-To
Units can get double movement (as the second turn of movement happens earlier than it should) if the auto go-to command is used for distances over 1 turn. Do not use go-to commands for over 1 turn of distance.

2.11 - Negative Spending
Teams may not have a negative income when they end their turn which would put their treasury below zero gold, at the expense of just a few units or buildings, in order to gain advantages, such as running full science, which they could not normally afford with their regular income. Although having a negative income is permissible, perhaps to finish research of a technology one turn quicker, exploiting the game in the aforementioned manner, in a way that the disbanding of units and buildings does not make up for the commercial gains, is not allowed. If a team does end with a negative income and gets the in-game pop-up saying buildings/units have been disbanded, they should let the administrators know.

2.12 - Civil Engineer Exploits
It is not allowed for a team to use civil engineers to contribute shields to the construction of a building, and then rush that building and switch to a unit, as the shields from the civil engineers will carry over when they should not. Additionally, teams cannot partly build a city improvement, rush it, and then switch production to another building and continue this process, as the civil engineers' shields will be counted once for each rush, providing a false number of shields.


Is 2.13 2.12 OK? I went to the thread in the GOTM forum and tried to put it into a few sentences, so (everyone) let me know if it worked out fine...

 

[Whomp]

GA, in hindsight, the "renegotiate all deals" thing was a problem for KISS at the end of the game and something I would simply request all of the turnplayers turn off in their preferences. It's become a issue in the ISDG.