Ruleset Discussion

[2metraninja]

Are you sure? I don't play very much pitboss (maybe 1 or 2 games) but I play tons of pbem games. I had thought that sequential pitboss games would be very similar to pbem games in that production of units, etc happens at the end of the players turn and is not done all together at the end of the round.

Truth be told, I've never played in a sequential pitboss. However I do believe exactly this is the case. In online games with sequential turns production/science/growth, etc happens for all the players at the same time when the turn switches, just like this is the case with simultaneous pitbosses, so I believe this will be the case with sequential pitboss too. Maybe someone with experience can correct me if I am wrong.

But even this does not cover all the advantages/disadvantages of being first/second mover. The one who is moving first will still be able to promote and attack before the second mover can do anything in this regard.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...&postcount=239

This link shows a hypothetical way of dealing with some of the advantages/disadvantages of being first/second mover, but it does not list those. I though if we have something like complete list of advantages/disadvantages of being first/second mover we can see if those can be compared in strength and if found somewhat equal, then we can just leave it unregulated as we all agreed that rules about this can be very hard to create/control/enforce.

 

[ruff_hi]

This link shows a hypothetical way of dealing with some of the advantages/disadvantages of being first/second mover, but it does not list those. I though if we have something like complete list of advantages/disadvantages of being first/second mover we can see if those can be compared in strength and if found somewhat equal, then we can just leave it unregulated as we all agreed that rules about this can be very hard to create/control/enforce.

Agreed. Would you like to start such a list? Or anyone? I would, but as has been pointed out above, I miss items.

 

[ruff_hi]

Or here is a thought ... what about if the person declaring war always takes the first half. I have seen comments about how the first have has the momentum and that is certainly true with the person declaring ... how does that sound?

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[talonschild]

Better than assigned sequential. Since the build phase never happens until the turn roll, that just sets in stone an advantage for one team above all others in the game setup. If we leave it so people can choose where they want to be in the turn order (by whatever means we deem suitable), it levels the field - which is something we all want.

Personally, I like the method posted above where the team that moved first one turn could elect to allow (actually, it may be more correct to say force) their enemy to doublemove so they could get the second half of the next turn. But any sort of way for teams to decide when they move is preferable.

 

[tobiasn]

I like that "elected opponent double move for the guys in first turn" or what you call it as well. It was proposed by mzprox here, and no-one really took notice.

He did however say "if we didn't use the spanish mod" - but maybe Manolo or Magno could answer if such a switch of turn order is possible?

In that case nothing is set in stone, and turn order is "in play" as a strategic tool.

 

[ruff_hi]

My personal opinion:

I believe that in this ISDG game, with its multilingual nature, Rule 05 C should be modified to disallow players from defeated teams joining other teams. This rule naturally gives the five anglophone, and to a lesser extent, the two francophone teams a big advantage, due to the language barrier. If team CFC were eliminated, for example, most players would join other English teams. This influx of new information, man-hours and opinions could turn into a game-breaking advantage under some circumstances.

This is a very good point. I don't really think that any of the English speaking teams should be driving / deciding this point as it is to their advantage. Any of the non-English speaking teams got any comments on if this should be included or not?

Should we include some commentary about this when we get a stable rule set that all teams vote on?

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[SevenSpirits]

Truth be told, I've never played in a sequential pitboss. However I do believe exactly this is the case. In online games with sequential turns production/science/growth, etc happens for all the players at the same time when the turn switches, just like this is the case with simultaneous pitbosses, so I believe this will be the case with sequential pitboss too. Maybe someone with experience can correct me if I am wrong.

Just so you guys don't make any rules based on wrong information, in fact with a sequential game production happens as soon as you end turn. It's just like pbem in that respect. This is one big advantage of sequential turns - everyone plays the same game. Unfortunately sequential turns with 9 teams is a slow motion train wreck waiting to happen.

Or here is a thought ... what about if the person declaring war always takes the first half. I have seen comments about how the first have has the momentum and that is certainly true with the person declaring ... how does that sound?

While I'm here... forcing the declarer to take the worse turn half every time seems like a very bad idea, unless you want a giant peace-fest.

 

[ruff_hi]

I've also found out that you can swap from sim to seq and back again ...

No need; I already have a good handle on the timing required.

Simultaneous -> Sequential

The only time this can be done cleanly is at the start of a turn before anyone has played, so that it's after the simultaneous production phase. If this switch happens when say team 2 in sequential turn order has played already, then team 1 gets two turns with no production phase for team 2 in between.

Sequential -> Simultaneous

This is tricky and actually might not work right at all. The problem is that there's some processing that takes place at the beginning of each player's turn (not end of turn), specifically that units heal and regain movement points. If flipped at the beginning of a game turn, only team 1's units would regain movement points. If flipped just before the end of a game turn, then all teams but the last would get an extra production phase.

In all cases, I'm pretty sure the option can be changed and the game can continue, but these details could ruin the fun.

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[Yuufo]

I submitted R_rolo1's proposal to my team.
Though no final vote has been reached yet, the main trend is towards approval.
However, point 6d sparked criticism (dead team players joining other teams). There are concerns about unfair information spread.

 

[2metraninja]

Just so you guys don't make any rules based on wrong information, in fact with a sequential game production happens as soon as you end turn. It's just like pbem in that respect. This is one big advantage of sequential turns - everyone plays the same game. Unfortunately sequential turns with 9 teams is a slow motion train wreck waiting to happen.

No, no - I am not trying to make any rules for this game out of presumptions, we are speaking more of hypothetically discussing what can be if it is sequential turns, where this game will be played with simultaneous turns anyway.

Just out of curiosity n continuation of discussing possible advantages/disadvantages of being first/second in a sequential turns pitboss, what happens with

The one who is moving first will still be able to promote and attack before the second mover can do anything in this regard.

Is this true?

 

[2metraninja]

I like that "elected opponent double move for the guys in first turn" or what you call it as well. It was proposed by mzprox here, and no-one really took notice.

He did however say "if we didn't use the spanish mod" - but maybe Manolo or Magno could answer if such a switch of turn order is possible?

In that case nothing is set in stone, and turn order is "in play" as a strategic tool.

I second this elegant approach for handling the highly controversial first/second mover case.

 

[tobiasn]

(no official CFC hat on now, just trying to speed things up )

RB/Apolyton: Since you've been the only ones really vocal about this, together with us at CFC, is the mzprox solution something you can accept outright as a compromise to all this controversy?

And I would really, really like to know if the APT mod could work like this. I'll PM the Spanish kode krew.

 

[tobiasn]

Manolo just confirmed that this is indeed possible:

I have the mod ready with the latest changes.
[...]
Features included on the web: (www.aptmod.com)
[...]
* Change order in the war (can only be done before any of the 2 players have completed the turn).
[...]

Sweet. So this is definately a viable option.

 

[Lord Parkin]

(no official CFC hat on now, just trying to speed things up )

RB/Apolyton: Since you've been the only ones really vocal about this, together with us at CFC, is the mzprox solution something you can accept outright as a compromise to all this controversy?

And I would really, really like to know if the APT mod could work like this. I'll PM the Spanish kode krew.

What if the player in the second half refuses to double move in order to maintain the resource denial advantage?

 

[tobiasn]

It obviosly needs to be something along these lines:

- When at war, player having first turn has a right to forfeit his first turn position, thus giving the player in second turn a double move advantage, and putting that player in the first turn position for the subsequent turn.

It doesn't have to be more complicated than that. It's a right we give to the player that has first turn - who ever that is. So if player #2 is "bumped up" to first turn, he too can choose to give his opponent a double move and "get back in line" the next turn.

Such a request needs to be done before the new turn begins, obv.

As I see it, this way of doing it keeps the strategic differences of being first/second intact - but if the situation is intolerable for a team in first position, they can choose to switch - at a cost of an opponent's double move.

This should address both your concerns of perpetual resource denial, and the expressed concerns from several parties that your initial proposal would nerf specific tactics.

Again, I'm not on any official CFC business here, but I'd like to see an amicable solution to this, and this is by far the best proposal I've come across.

 

[2metraninja]

It obviosly needs to be something along these lines:

- When at war, player having first turn has a right to forfeit his first turn position, thus giving the player in second turn a double move advantage, and putting that player in the first turn position for the subsequent turn.

It doesn't have to be more complicated than that. It's a right we give to the player that has first turn - who ever that is. So if player #2 is "bumped up" to first turn, he too can choose to give his opponent a double move and "get back in line" the next turn.

Such a request needs to be done before the new turn begins, obv.

I do like this approach much

 

[Filon]

But what if the war involved more than two civilizations?

 

[2metraninja]

I guess the one wanting to change his position will have to suffer all the nations which are in war with them and want to move after them to double- move them.

This leaves open the question of maintaining moves in blocks.

 

[Magno_uy]

My personal opinion:

I believe that in this ISDG game, with its multilingual nature, Rule 05 C should be modified to disallow players from defeated teams joining other teams. This rule naturally gives the five anglophone, and to a lesser extent, the two francophone teams a big advantage, due to the language barrier. If team CFC were eliminated, for example, most players would join other English teams. This influx of new information, man-hours and opinions could turn into a game-breaking advantage under some circumstances.

spanish team dont care, we are planning to eliminate all of you, so don't care if someone wants to suffer more than once our forces.

 

[Magno_uy]

And I would really, really like to know if the APT mod could work like this. I'll PM the Spanish kode krew.

Sorry.. At least I am completly lost and awesome on the capacity to spam-on-topic you had...