Russia First Look [Peter]

[Zaarin]

I actually expect to ultimately see more than one unique variety of each district, if only because there are plenty of civs that would make sense to have them; it will be interesting to see how that plays out in the long run. (I believe the only districts with no unique version in the base game are the encampment, commercial district, and campus--which is a pretty narrow list for a long list of civs yet to come.) Overall, though, I agree with your reasoning.

 

[ehecatzin]

Not all of the UD represent all of the civs history, Lavra, Hansa, Royal Shipyard, etc. I don't see why a scientific UD should have to be any diferent. So both Korea and Maya are decent candidates for a UD, tho if I had to choose I'd go with Korea, Mayans would probably get an improvement, and while we are at it, I'd love to se an improvement that "grows" if you put 3 together, like farms, only with Mayan ceremonial centers.

But back ot the Lavra and Russia, I think a secondary leader should be able to use the Russian religious focus in diferent ways, you could even have a leader that can't found a religion but uses faith in a diferent way (just as an example).

I think Gorgo will be a good measurement as to how much of a different playstyle can the leader bring, Greece focused on Sparta should feel very diferent than Pericle's. So if that's the case I think we can expect diferent playstyles for Russia later down the road with different leaders, even with the religious focus.

 

[Atlas627]

I actually expect to ultimately see more than one unique variety of each district, if only because there are plenty of civs that would make sense to have them; it will be interesting to see how that plays out in the long run. (I believe the only districts with no unique version in the base game are the encampment, commercial district, and campus--which is a pretty narrow list for a long list of civs yet to come.) Overall, though, I agree with your reasoning.

But we also have a bajillion buildings and infinite UIs to use. They could definitely do the rest of the Civs without an overlapping UD, though I agree that using up most of the UD slots on the vanilla Civs is suspect.

Not all of the UD represent all of the civs history, Lavra, Hansa, Royal Shipyard, etc. I don't see why a scientific UD should have to be any diferent.

Did anybody say that this was what was wrong with the UD? I was saying that a District has to be a zone where you can place buildings, that makes sense everywhere in the empire (due to being cheap and free).

So both Korea and Maya are decent candidates for a UD, tho if I had to choose I'd go with Korea, Mayans would probably get an improvement, and while we are at it, I'd love to se an improvement that "grows" if you put 3 together, like farms, only with Mayan ceremonial centers.

That would be cool, though I would rather just do that using Districts. Encouraging you to place your Districts around your Campus would result in different choices from normal.

But back ot the Lavra and Russia, I think a secondary leader should be able to use the Russian religious focus in diferent ways, you could even have a leader that can't found a religion but uses faith in a diferent way (just as an example).

I think Gorgo will be a good measurement as to how much of a different playstyle can the leader bring, Greece focused on Sparta should feel very diferent than Pericle's. So if that's the case I think we can expect diferent playstyles for Russia later down the road with different leaders, even with the religious focus.

Yes, I hope this is the case. Some other Russian leader will be about Patronizing Great People (Royal Court), and a third might allow you to spend Faith on rush buying buildings or something (Communism).

 

[SpaceCommunist]

I've lived in Korea; Korean science is not a myth. The Koreans have been and are brilliant scientists. But do tell us, who is worthy of a science related bonus? Actually, let me guess: the Mongols.

Beating a dead horse with this one, but Russia. Only America has gotten closer to actually winning a IRL science victory, and even then that's with all the spaceflight accomplishments the Soviet Union beat America to. Outside of spaceflight there's also nuclear power, medicines, electronics (modern day, mind you), chemistry (Mendeleev come to mind, anyone?), etc.

Speaking of which, America would actually make a good one, too - probably more related to Great Scientists (or great people altogether), though. Really, America does need some better stats. I imagine if they introduced an immigration mechanic in a future expansion America would almost certainly be reworked to be geared around that, probably with Faith/Great People bonuses. But this is all out of the question.

Also: I still really don't think that LA represents Russian science, it represents Russia trying to catch up to everyone else's science. A better reflection would be Russia's own scientific progress, instead (though not as the LA, as westernization suits Peter just fine).

 

[Martinus]

Actually, the Unique District Campus could potentially go to a non-obviously-scientific civ and, like Lavra, grant non-scientific bonuses which are more in line with the civ's flavour.

Perhaps even making it a Leader-Unique District and giving it to Jadwiga of Poland (who is known for re-founding the Jagellonian University) but giving faith and GP bonuses as opposed to science bonuses. Maybe even, like Kongo, disabling Science victory for Poland (UA: Poland Cannot Into Space ).

 

[Thormodr]

Rome would actually be a pretty poor choice for a science civ, IMO. For one thing, they're far more significant for their infrastructure and rabid expansionism--which is exactly how they're represented in Civ6; for another, they tended to leech off the advancements of others rather than develop technology themselves (Etruscan city planning, Phoenician and Greek sailing, Celtic metallurgy, etc.). Russia likewise is far better suited for sapping others' science than science in its own right. I agree with the rest of your list, though, except you left out America, England, France, and Germany--all of whom are responsible for major advances in science, but who are also more interesting to focus on other aspects of their cultures.

I still think Korea is a good candidate for a unique campus (Confucian scholarship wasn't solely in the capital, after all), but I agree the Maya would be another. In fact, if I were to select one civ as science focused, it would certainly be the Maya (an excellent science/religion combo civ, in fact). Since both the Koreans and the Maya are inevitable additions, I'd be shocked if both didn't have science bonuses of some kind.


Sorry, but it's hard not to be a little flippant when you dismiss established historiography for pet theories. As for Hangul, it is pretty unique as a featural alphabet; the only other writing system like it is Tolkien's tengwar. Yes, the shapes are based on Chinese script as are all East Asian writing systems, but Hangul is quite unique as far as writing systems go. As has already been pointed out, no civilization has been a scientific superpower throughout its entire existence, but since a flourishing of the sciences is characteristic of periods of both Arabia and Korea, both are excellent choices as scientific civs. Still, Korea as a culture powerhouse could be an interesting twist.

Don't agree with your summation but I do enjoy conversing with you.

If you want to talk about the true origins of Hangul as well as Korea in regards to Civ, we can certainly do that in another thread as this is off topic. Perhaps Civ 6 Ideas and suggestions.

That goes for Arabia, as well.

 

[Manifold]

Rome would actually be a pretty poor choice for a science civ, IMO.

Sorry, but Rome was one of the most scientific Civ in all time. They were the first Civ with a pronounced education. Nearly everything important for modern societies has its origin by the Romans. Engineering, medicine, administration, logistics, literature, education... are sciences. After Rome´s fall it takes 1000 years to get the next step in the techtree.
The problem is that Rome could get bonuses in every aspect of Civilization but that would be unfair of course.

Russia was the most time of the history substantially underdeveloped. Their
catching up began with the industrialization and international trading and Peter the Great. But he had a hard job. Russian modernization and technical breakthroughs began with the October Revolution and the Elimination of the Orthodox Church.

So the Lavra should give Russia a deduction on sciences till industrialization. And factories and trade routes should give them a major Bonus on sciences. With this way of a Russian scientific Civ, I can agree.

 

[jekke]

don't agree with Rome being more scientific civ than Russia, Germany, China or maybe Arabia, but nonetheless: there can be different ways to give a civ a scientific boost. In terms of Civ VI, it can be a unique scientific district, it can faster great scientists rate, it can be outright free great scientist a-la babylon, science from trade routes, science from city-states etc. And so, many civs could be designed as "scientific" ones. In the case of Russia, great people could work nicely I suppose. US could actually profit from great scientists other civs have And Germany could have a synergy of industry and science such as beakers from industrial zones and hammers from campuses. There are plenty of options.

 

[Liufeng]

Sorry, but Rome was one of the most scientific Civ in all time. They were the first Civ with a pronounced education. Nearly everything important for modern societies has its origin by the Romans. Engineering, medicine, administration, logistics, literature, education... are sciences. After Rome´s fall it takes 1000 years to get the next step in the techtree.
The problem is that Rome could get bonuses in every aspect of Civilization but that would be unfair of course.

Russia was the most time of the history substantially underdeveloped. Their
catching up began with the industrialization and international trading and Peter the Great. But he had a hard job. Russian modernization and technical breakthroughs began with the October Revolution and the Elimination of the Orthodox Church.

So the Lavra should give Russia a deduction on sciences till industrialization. And factories and trade routes should give them a major Bonus on sciences. With this way of a Russian scientific Civ, I can agree.

Sorry, but this time I had to intervene. Rome was certainly NOT one of the most scientific Civ in all time. Surely, they had a very pronounced education. But romans were truly a militaristic and pragmatic society. The illusion of the roman society being a pinacle of science, litterature or medicine is created by them has several factors : today's education emphasis more on latin than greek (or anything else among ancient languages, which pushes students to read a lot of latin works ; the fact that in the middle ages people did not had access to the greek texts until the XVth century, latin and roman culture was still extremely strong, which somewhat passed on to us ; ... Roman culture was completly outshined by greek culture, to the point that many roman scholars wrote in greek, which they saw as a better language. Heck, even latin poetry had to create tons of new words which are only used in poetry because they used a rythmic model which was adapted to the greek language but poorly to latin. Even the word poet, "poeta", comes from the greek poietes. You probably know Tacitus, Tite-Livus, Virgil, Suetone, Cicero, and so on, but those remain great exceptions throughout roman's 1000 years of history. Even roman time scientifics, like Archimede, are of greek culture. So Rome as a scientific Rome (or even worse, cultural), I hope I'll never see it.

You are however right about Russia. It's scientific history lasts only for more less 60 years, which for a 500 year empire is not very much. If Russia becomes a scientific civ, it should be an ability attached to a soviet leader. But then again, I wouldn't like to see a soviet leader ... Maybe as you said, factories giving them a scientific bonus (if I remember correctly, factories giving science was a Civ V feature within the order ideology).

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Rome was good at adapting but it was hardly a scientific powerhouse and medieval europe would beat it in every area eventually.

 

[Josephias]

In the case of Russia, great people could work nicely I suppose. US could actually profit from great scientists other civs have

That gave me a good idea to boost Peter's LUA: to not only give raw science and culture, but also scientific and cultural GPP based on linked civ science/culture production. That would represent atracting foregin talent and give some sinergy to the Lavra.

 

[ZerrorR]

So the Lavra should give Russia a deduction on sciences till industrialization. And factories and trade routes should give them a major Bonus on sciences. With this way of a Russian scientific Civ, I can agree.

You accumulate faith and than buy a bunch of great scientists and engineers with faith.

One question regarding LUA. If I am great at culture, but I am lagging in science, I am getting only science points from trade routes, and not culture, and vice versa?

 

[shaglio]

One question regarding LUA. If I am great at culture, but I am lagging in science, I am getting only science points from trade routes, and not culture, and vice versa?

It depends on your trade partner. If you're doing great in Culture, but they're doing better, you'll still get culture from the trade route. The only thing I'm not certain of is, if they're ahead of you in both Science and Culture, will you get both?

 

[ZerrorR]

It depends on your trade partner. If you're doing great in Culture, but they're doing better, you'll still get culture from the trade route. The only thing I'm not certain of is, if they're ahead of you in both Science and Culture, will you get both?

Essentially that allows Russia to intentionally lag itself in either science or culture. This will be crucial on higher difficulty levels.

 

[Zaarin]

Sorry, but Rome was one of the most scientific Civ in all time. They were the first Civ with a pronounced education.

Sorry, but Sumer, Egypt, Persia, and Greece all disagree with you.

 

[Ovarwa]

As do Babylon, India and China. Even the Celts.

 

[Jabulani]

Sorry, but Sumer, Egypt, Persia, and Greece all disagree with you.

This one is correct

 

[Nyeyedyaka]

Like Muscovy.
Name is stolen from Rus, UU is primarily Ukrainian, UA is stealing the land, LUA is stealing science/culture, UB is mainly not Russian as well. Seems legit to me.

 

[SpaceCommunist]

Like Muscovy.
Name is stolen from Rus, UU is primarily Ukrainian, UA is stealing the land, LUA is stealing science/culture, UB is mainly not Russian as well. Seems legit to me.

With all the mish-mashed aspects of other nations put into one, you'd think this was America, not Russia.

 

[agonistes]

Starting with all of those bonus tiles may, MAY, be the strongest trait we have seen from any civ so far.

In any version of civ that I have played (I never played I), a fast and strong start pretty much guarantees a victory. A fast and strong start usually is quite dependent on having easy access to good tiles. Hopefully with Russia you won't have the usual delays in getting to choice tiles as your city demands them. And not only are you getting those tiles sooner, you are preventing your neighbors from acquiring them too.

Not to mention clearing out barbarian camps too.

I didn't see it in the LP video, but someone mentioned also the UD gives a +1 amenities adjacency bonus, and its built at half the cost being a unique district, plus the luxuries you are acquiring with all those extra tiles...

Russia looks pretty strong to me.

I, too, am a touch disappointed in the +1 tile per GP expended, and the trade route bonuses, but I think they first and foremost wanted a Russia that had a lot of land. And didn't want to repeat America's 50% reduction from V. So they went with the photo bomb (sorry, that's how I keep hearing it in my head). And then they balanced from there.

But if you can grow that fast, and on top of that have a massive amount of faith generation, which can be used towards a faith victory, OR for great people generation or just getting your picks of religious bonuses, or both, which translates into pretty much any victory type you want, well, I don't see how Russia could be viewed as weak. Maybe the synergy and straight up bonuses aren't as jazzy, but the civ is strong.

And I wouldn't necessarily run the tundra borders, either. Gobbling up the watery grasslands could be the nastier tactic. So head north or south, not east or west, with your first settlers, and let the AI make do with the tundra.

edit: is there a civic that allows for cheaper tile purchasing?
edit 2: and here is yet another civ that you probably don't want as a neighbor. Seem to be quite a few of these this time around.

The United States is considered a secular republic by its constitution. Similarly, North Korea is considered a Democratic People's Republic by its constitution.

If you haven't seen the religious ties between federal/state officials and religious organizations, you've been living in Vermont for too long.

Well, his profile says he is from Southern Cal. I, though, AM from Vermont. While religion does indeed affect policy in the US, it does not do so nearly so much as pure greed does. And greed tends to turn a blind eye to the morality teachings of philosophy/religion... thus, separation of church and state. If you want to go off-road with constitutional analysis.

edit 3: of all the resources you can acquire in the game, gold and faith are the two that can be used for the greatest variety of outcomes, aren't they? And Russia seems to be good at stocking up on both in the early game.

-- in fact, it will be interesting to see if a player can build key early wonders faster as Russia, or as Egypt or China.

edit 4: you know, it would be neat if they gave us the option to rename wonders that we have built.