S-02 Learning to Ride

[angeleyes]

I would certainly take a cease-fire (it stops ww), cure and build your horses and then in 2 turns take her last city. Cease-fire also really speeds up production of GL.

F6 tells me Guilds in 46 turns, while MT and Gunpowder in 145 turns. A big difference, although you maybe can use GP to speed up research.But what's also important is that the way to Guilds goes through Monarchie (heredatery rule), metalcasting(forge) and feudalisme (vassalage). In this game i prefer vassalage above bureaucratie to make our horses as strong as possible.
And don't forget optics for caravels to meet the other opponents, therefore the route to guilds is also much better.
But going for Cossacks immediately would certainly be a challenge....

I would change research to monarchie (only 3 turns) > heredatery rule.
Our research rate is 60%, that tells me we don't need courthouses yet

If possible a few settlers and a galley to explore the east would be nice


Watch out for Hatshy! Several times i've been attacked by her in solo games.

 

[sooooo]

I think we might be OK for nationalism still. Those techs are easily tradeable for techs we will have by the time we want to use the artist for nationalism. It would be great to do a double artist/liberalism slingshot to grab MT.

Nice turns as always Blid.

And I'm up.

Cosmichail
Kikinit
mike p
Asperge
blid - Just Played
sooooo - UP

I'll play tomorrow evening, so we have ~24 hr to discuss.

 

[Cosmichail]

I would certainly take a cease-fire (it stops ww), cure and build your horses and then in 2 turns take her last city. Cease-fire also really speeds up production of GL.

Agree and after looking at the save we need to regroup forces anyways.

And don't forget optics for caravels to meet the other opponents, therefore the route to guilds is also much better.

Definitely a good approach since having more civs to trade with will help us expand out tech base.

Some observations:

Capitol/Nottingham are Buddhist and we have 3 Judiast cities. Would it worth be changing to gain closer ties with Hatty however Louis and her are close in score.

Diplomatic situation: -5 with Hatty she don't look too happy and most is religious stress. -1 declare on friend -1 for something else so -4 for religion. Oddly enough she will trade currency or music for Priesthood (which isn't worth it) but brings relations up to -3. She will even buys goods from us at 3 gpt which in the long run will add to relations. She hates Louis so any trading with him of course gets us a negative. Louis is at +5 but he can flip rather easily from Pleased to war (in my experience). We are limited with two civs so getting out caravels soon would be good to up our tech base as Asperge pointed out.

If we go with cease fire we should get Novgorod to build GL faster means losing little commerce but have 3 tiles of production. You never know Mansa Musa may be out there and he tends to go after that wonder. To me faster is always better.

Once we get enough horses we can finish Lizzy off. Tech wise I am with Asperge on the route to guilds. By that time we will need Banking for economy maybe. However if we get some good trades could accelerate the process but we need more civs to trade with to maximize our techs. Just think with 4 civs one tech (like Paper/Education) can yield us quite often 4 techs. So let's finish Lizzy off and find some more civs.

Our next victim should be Egypt since her stance is as such threatening and need to slow her down. I think we should wait for Knights for that as Cossacks is a too far away.

EDIT: Oh don't forget to beg sometimes they will give us a tech. Doesn't happen too often but once in a blue moon. We could try to demand from Hatty but I doubt she will give in. Will give us more negative too. I also checked to see if Louis would be interested in going to war with Hatty but he says he would have nothing to gain.

 

[angeleyes]

Isnt London a bit low on production for HE? Maybe if you keep some forest around and lumbermill them? Why pick London?

Is there another choice? It has 4 hills and a cow and enough food. Other city's with hills already have villages. Workshops are also a good way to get more hammers.

Now Moscow gets the national epic, i prefer farming it in stead of cottaging. It can get 5 special ones. This also means vassalage would suit us more than bureaucratie.

If going for monarchie (3 turns) we can probably change 2 civics in 1 turn > heredatery rule & organized religion, would speed up GL with 25% ..

 

[blid]

Capitol/Nottingham are Buddhist and we have 3 Judiast cities. Would it worth be changing to gain closer ties with Hatty however Louis and her are close in score.

Wouldn't do that. Sure Louis is not trustworthy but making him annoyed will increase the odds of him attacking. Hatty is still willing to trade techs, I doubt Louis will if we convert. Just build a jewish missionary once we switch to OR to burn in capital.

If going for monarchie (3 turns) we can probably change 2 civics in 1 turn > heredatery rule & organized religion, would speed up GL with 25%

Consider stopping those chops I started next to NovGorod until we adopt OR to get the 25% bonus. I forgot that the chops get the boni too. Waiting 3 turns and doing a double swap is a good idea but I am not sure we'll get only 1 turn of revolution. Worth trying it though

Now Moscow gets the national epic, i prefer farming it in stead of cottaging

farming started

 

[Cosmichail]

@Blid.....

I didn't mean we should convert only wondering if it was worth it. I agree but even better is free religion and no religious tension whatsoever.

Also I didn't know that you get 25% bonus with OR on chops. Got to remember that one. It's nice to learn something new as that 25% could mean the difference of getting a wonder or not.

 

[sooooo]

Agree with Blid - lets spread Judaism. Hatty will still trade when annoyed, allowing us to rack up "Fair trade" relation points. Plus we'll eventually capture the Jewish shrine .

At the moment I'm in favour of ignoring the machinery-optics path. Bee-lining to Guilds or MT does not involve detouring to optics or banking or other things. We can trade for them if we have the opportunity, but they are not must-have-now techs. But monarchy is a good idea Asperge - not only for the happiness but also because HR is Hatty and Louis' favourite civic.

 

[namliaM]

@Blid.....

I didn't mean we should convert only wondering if it was worth it. I agree but even better is free religion and no religious tension whatsoever.

Also I didn't know that you get 25% bonus with OR on chops. Got to remember that one. It's nice to learn something new as that 25% could mean the difference of getting a wonder or not.

You also get 25% bonus for chops on units if you are in Policestate and 25% if you have a forge... Same with whipping people by the way...

 

[sooooo]

IHT: Canterbury changes from library to lighthouse. I actually like Canterbury. Sure it has no resources, but it's on the coast and a river, and being financial that means lots of money. I MM Novgorod as suggested to shave 3 turns off the great library (now due in 19). Cease Fire with Elizabeth while our troops heal. Cancel the chops as suggested. Change research to Monarchy.

Blimey, we are the centre of attention. Hatty sends a buddhist missionary to York (succeeds). Then I spot 3 (!) Jewish missionaries heading our way from Louis. Thanks, Louis!

Whip lighthouse in canterbury, set it back to the library. York starts a settler, although moving a worker out to the east it seems that Hatty has claimed the stone spot. Still, I'd like to claim the fish spot at the capital to allow us to jump onto the other island.

Monarchy completes, and we resume Code of Laws. Moscow completes National Epic and starts a HA.

Bad news:



Novgorod starts a market instead. On the same turn the colossus is BIDL. Hmm, I guess we need some new trading partners. On this map we can explore most things by galley, so I set Moscow onto one when it finishes its HA. When we've finished the war with lizzzy then our HAs can explore too. Judaism spreads to Moscow, London and York thanks to Louis. Revolt to HR and OR. A scientist is born in Moscow, and I wait for advice from the team. If we want an academy, not sure whether Novgorod or St Pete is best. Also, philosophy is available and Taoism hasn't been founded yet. Hmm.

CoL completes, start Civil Service.

Demand Lizzy's 20 gold and declare. Our fishing boats get pillaged. I empty our small cities and muster 5 horse archers. A bit overkill as it turns out because she only has 2 archers, a worker and a galley in there. The first two HAs win at >60% odds and we take Hastings:



Louis gives us 110 gold. Rostov finishes a market, starts a galley. London starts a courthouse.

OK. We will have 2 galleys in 4 turns with which to explore. A settler is due in 1 turn, and should settle the fish desert unless anyone has any better ideas. Then we can jump to the next island. There is also an island we can jump to from canterbury. Our HAs are finished fighting and can explore our own continent now.



Things to decide:

(1) Whether to go to gunpowder via MC, Machinery, Guilds (Knights) or instead via education. I'm not completely sure either way, but education also allows liberalism.

(2) What to do with the GS. In 11 turns we should have another GS. If we really really want cossacks quickly (and who doesn't?), then we could burn both GSs on Philosophy (founding Taoism) and Education. It seems we can't use the artist for nationalism (stupid divine right) so we need to decide what to do with him too.

Unless ... we manage to find a civ with our galleys that founds Islam (and that's not unlikely, for this is the time for Islam). Hmm, a quadruple slingshot ... burn scientist for philosophy, research CoL and paper, burn next scientist on education. Finish Education, find someone with DR while researching liberalism. Trade away CS, paper and education for Drama, Theo and DR then blow artist on nationalism, finish nationalism and liberalism (take MT), research gunpowder and we have cossacks! Or maybe not and maybe I need to have a lie down .

 

[Cosmichail]

You also get 25% bonus for chops on units if you are in Policestate and 25% if you have a forge... Same with whipping people by the way...

Nice info thanks NamliaM.... I should pay more attention to details like that but find MMing sometimes tedious especially if the empire gets somewhat big. But that's a great piece of info so it's best to save those forests sometimes. I tend to save them for lumbermills.

 

[Cosmichail]

(2) What to do with the GS. In 11 turns we should have another GS. If we really really want cossacks quickly (and who doesn't?), then we could burn both GSs on Philosophy (founding Taoism) and Education. It seems we can't use the artist for nationalism (stupid divine right) so we need to decide what to do with him too.

I agree let's burn them and I hate that divine right too always in the way of trades/tech path and once discovered kind of useless unless you want to build versailles or spiral minaret.

Unless ... we manage to find a civ with our galleys that founds Islam (and that's not unlikely, for this is the time for Islam). Hmm, a quadruple slingshot ... burn scientist for philosophy, research CoL and paper, burn next scientist on education. Finish Education, find someone with DR while researching liberalism. Trade away CS, paper and education for Drama, Theo and DR then blow artist on nationalism, finish nationalism and liberalism (take MT), research gunpowder and we have cossacks! Or maybe not and maybe I need to have a lie down

I just need to lie down reading that LOL....but sounds like a good plan.

 

[mike p]

We're going to need Philosophy for Education, and if Taoism isn't founded yet, we may as well grab it. If nothing else, the AI seems to overvalue Philosophy in trades, so if Louis or Hatty have been holding techs back on us, they might budge for Philosophy.

Canterbury would be all right I suppose if it wasn't so close to London. It does provide us a bridge to another island without needing Astronomy, so maybe it'll work out for the best, but you've got to remember that not only does it cost maintanence, but it may add to the maintanence cost based on total number of cities across the board. I just have a hard time building strategically useless cities in Civ 4 that don't have resource bonuses. But since it is a choke point for access to another island, I guess it's all right - as long as we close borders if our friends decide to send a galley through our waters with a settler.

 

[sooooo]

Cosmichail is up! Let's explore the world, meet new civs and kill them all. Don't worry about garissoning small cities if we need more troops to explore.

Cosmichail - UP
Kikinit - On Deck
mike p
Asperge
blid
sooooo - Just Played

 

[Cosmichail]

This is "I got it" but will wait for more consensus on the GS/GA....although 3players concur we should burn him for philosophy...

If we want Philosophy we should do it now. Too bad on the TGL but probably MM is out there. So will likely play late tonight if I'm up to it. Bit of a night owl.

 

[blid]

I am a fan of the scientist taoism slingshot though I missed it more times than not

Good job sooooo. Didn't know Louis was such a fanatic, sending 3 jewish missionaries at once

You may not be daydreaming with all these slingshots. We need to watch our neighbours attitudes closely though. Don't be cocky if they have reasonable demands. Or maybe we can just start a war between France and Egypt if things start looking really grim

We can use theocraty once we get theology to get double promoted HAs out of the barracks so this tech shall not be neglected. It is also on the techs list blocking access to nationalism for our artist

 

[Cosmichail]

T1

St. Petes finishes market start JM for Nott. York or St. Petes good candidates for HE. York starts library for science Burn GS for Philosophy and Novogorod becomes holy city.
Move Taoist missionary to Moscow for easy spread. Science we are ahead of Hatty and Louis.

T2

Move HA to explore France. Worker stuff.

T3

Hastings comes out of revolt. Start library for culture CH 120 turns. (culture to fill up empty area to stop AI from settling) Too close to settle there I think. Taoism fails in Moscow. Both Louis/Hatty have nothing to offer but Priesthood.

T4

Moscow finishes galley start HA. Market not with building just yet only 3 gpt and want to use HA for landmass east of us. Rostov good city although we are bleeding coin fast and have to drop science next turn. Rostov finishes galley start CH. Settler almost at the fish desert site. (the only one I see is east of Rostov)

Moscow galley proceeds southwest to look into island south of Canterbury which looks to be accessible.

T5

St. Petes finishes JM start CH for economy. Worker stuff. CS was done in 1 science but science drops to 70% at -33 gpt. Ok only get positive +15gpt at 40% science.

T6

Hatty asks for currency and oblige. I know but maybe we can get a trade. No go on the trade but she is cautious now. I am considering Blid’s (I think it was Blid) here and somewhat agree. I hate giving away techs but sometimes good to keep them at bay for now. Hope I judged well. We discover CS and revolt to bureaucracy for economy/science. Start MC as suggested. Galley found another large land mass.

Forgot to put HA on galley to explore moving HA to meet with galley (only 1 turn away)

T7

We settle Yaroslavl’ in the farthest spot from Rostov to avoid overlapping. Ok Hatty will offer Priesthood/Construction for Philosophy. Although construction not important construction is on path to Engineering. I decide not to do it for now. Louis has exactly the same thing so maybe better to trade with him. I’ll leave that for the next player.

T8

Nottingham finishes granary start CH. Worker stuff. Land HA on newly discovered continent.

T9

Moscow finishes HA start market. York finishes Lib start market. HA lands on continent and pops a hut for a map. It is a barren place indeed.

T10

Novgorod finishes Market start CH. Ok Louis has settler near London. I don’t think it’s worth settling there to close to everything. In hindsight I am not crazy about the desert fish site but what’s done is done.

What I don't get is that this landmass is at the same latitude as the equator more or less so what's ice doing there. Is this the effect Sooooo's setup on tilted axis. I don't necessarily understand the dynamics entirely but one part of the planet must be tilting northwards as the evidence is clear with this landmass.

 

[sooooo]

Kikinit said in another thread that he won't be able to play for a few days, so Mike feel free to take a swap and post a got it if you want. My vote is for Paper as next tech.

 

[Rowain deWolf]

What I don't get is that this landmass is at the same latitude as the equator more or less so what's ice doing there. Is this the effect Sooooo's setup on tilted axis. I don't necessarily understand the dynamics entirely but one part of the planet must be tilting northwards as the evidence is clear with this landmass.

Tilted Axis means the poles are west and east so Congrats you have discovered the east-pole


Edit: And the circumnavigation bonus you get for north-south exploration instead of west-east.

 

[Kikinit]

Thanks sooooo. This one came back around might fast. Best that I just ask for a skip this round as I don't know when I'll have time to get to this and KK-04.

 

[Kikinit]

... Edit: And the circumnavigation bonus you get for north-south exploration instead of west-east.

This is a good point. Another thing where instinctively you head east and west instead of north-south like we must do in this game.