Sailing the Harmless Seas

In Colonisation you transported treasure in a galleon back to the Old World. Therefore a navy became more important.

The implementation of trade route blockades with ships causes you to want a navy more but if you have few coastal cities (e.g. on continents map) this is of little consequence. However since you don't actually earn money blockading harbours the incentive to do it is lessened.

Therefore...

Perhaps instead of automatic trade routes on coastal cities there could be multiple weak merchant ships constantly travelling between coastal cities (not built by you but automatically made by the computer to physically represent trade). Then pirates could keep attacking them and take gold from each one sunk. To counter this a player would need a large navy to protect these weak merchant vessels.
 
2 more cents from me:

Sailor's Dirge summoning things is a good suggestion. Since the Dirge was sunk and brought back by the Overlords, something watery might be better than skeletons. Drown, even. Would Water Elementals be too much? Someone should whip up a pirate skeleton nif anyhow.

Crime rate affecting pirate spawnage: very yeah. One suggestion was to make barb pirates target high-crime cities--is it possible to tell AI whom to target? Pirates spawning too early would be big trouble for a coastal city. What kind of minimums could be set, or when should pirates replace earlier ships, such as dragon ships? Should building pirates and privateers increase crime rate in the city?

Barb-lull: Seriously. Do they go on vacation? "Good rampage guys. Way to knock down that farm there, Gark. Let's all take a well-earned rest... and I'll see you back here for the Armageddon."

Treasure is a good suggestion. Imagine there being pirate coves created when the map is made. They will have a barb pirate and some treasure equipment. You send your ship in and take the treasure back to your city. It gives you gold, happiness, whatever. Other ships invade your city and take the treasure. They take it back to their city, where it has a cumulative effect with all the other treasure they've managed to plunder.
 
In Colonisation you transported treasure in a galleon back to the Old World. Therefore a navy became more important.

The implementation of trade route blockades with ships causes you to want a navy more but if you have few coastal cities (e.g. on continents map) this is of little consequence. However since you don't actually earn money blockading harbours the incentive to do it is lessened.

Therefore...

Perhaps instead of automatic trade routes on coastal cities there could be multiple weak merchant ships constantly travelling between coastal cities (not built by you but automatically made by the computer to physically represent trade). Then pirates could keep attacking them and take gold from each one sunk. To counter this a player would need a large navy to protect these weak merchant vessels.

I really like that idea, but I suspect it would be hard to implement well, would add a lot of clutter (and possibly micromanagement), and be awfully hard on a lot of peoples' cpus. If it could be made to work, I would love it.

Naval trade routes are one of those things that have been of immense economic importance throughout history, and which civ-type games have consistently failed to do justice to (except colonisation, but that model is hardly applicable here).

With the somewhat automated blockade system bts has, there's the germ of a useable abstraction - the problem is that unless a city's road links are also all cut off, blockading is not going to do any actual economic damage to the blockaded civ.
If you could blockade naval trade routes and meaningfully impact an enemy's economy (or have the same done to you), the current blockade mechanism could conceivably work quite well as is.

I don't know the nitty-gritty of the trade route programming mechanics, so I don't know if this is a plausible idea, but here's a thought:
Unblockaded coastal cities get a bonus to the value of their existing trade routes - e.g. a larger bonus from the harbour but predicated on not being blockaded.
Extra traderoutes from lighthouses/Great Lighthouse require the city is not blockaded.
Trade routes from coastal city to coastal city get a further bonus provided there is a fully water-borne route for them.
Reintroduce something like the BtS Customs House with a further bonus for intercontinental trade routes.


Thus waterborne traderoutes become significantly more valuable than overland ones, and could provide a significant portion of an empire's income. Cutting off those sealanes could really hit an empire in the hip pocket, and be really worth building a navy for.
Since the largest ports would thus be getting the lion's share of traderoute income (and have the best infrastructure to further capitalise on it), even blockading a single port (without blocking the whole traderoute) could hurt pretty badly.
Likewise it would be something well worth protecting against (particularly if there was more of a barb presence on the seas).
It also makes coastal cities much more worthwhile, which I think is a very good thing (see this thread).

Obviously, this doesn't account for all the complexities of land/sea/land/sea trade routes etc, but I think it approximates the value-adding effect of merchant marine reasonably well without adding complex new mechanics.
 
You DO gain money by setting up a blockade, but only if you are at peace with the Civilization you are blockading (which requires a LOT of ships outside cultural borders, or Hidden Nationality).

And Sailor's Dirge, when it was in the game, did spawn skeletons and would occasionally touch shore to drop them off, pulling out to sea to re-stock itself (from what I have read at least).
 
Before BtS it would slowly spawn skeletons and unload them if it was adjacent to land, but it normally just sailed around randomly like other ships. Unfortunately, it also tended to stop in the first coastal barbarian civ, and so was easily beaten by land units taking the city. Of course, BtS improved the naval AI considerably, so it may work better now.
 
Just an idea for sailors dirge, how about allowing it to spawn free boarding parties so it can capture other peoples ships.
 
You DO gain money by setting up a blockade, but only if you are at peace with the Civilization you are blockading (which requires a LOT of ships outside cultural borders, or Hidden Nationality).

Yeah but the economic effects for the blockader and blockade-ee are pretty minimal. And as you say, it's essentially limited to privateer-types. I'm not suggesting that hostile naval blockades should generate revenue, but rather that they should have the realistic potential to really hurt an opponent's economy by effectively shutting down significant amounts of their trade income. And thus become a viable military strategy, worth building a navy for (or to protect against). And yeah, I don't see why privateers shouldn't have a similar effect either (plus the little bit of money).

Currently, if you blockade an enemy port - unless it's their one port AND they don't have any overland routes to a friendly civ's ports - it's not going to hurt them at all, traderoute-wise. Even if you do cut off all their sealanes, their overland routes will probably still serve them almost as nicely. Not exactly an overwhelming incentive.
 
Just an idea for sailors dirge, how about allowing it to spawn free boarding parties so it can capture other peoples ships.

I think it still needs to summon undead units, but I have no problem with these having the Boarding promotion. Amphibious could be good too. It might also make sense for the captured ships to become undead too. Would it be too much if each captured ship became a new Sailors Dirge? (Granting undead or changing the type of ship would probably require python though.)
 
I think it still needs to summon undead units, but I have no problem with these having the Boarding promotion. Amphibious could be good too. It might also make sense for the captured ships to become undead too. Would it be too much if each captured ship became a new Sailors Dirge? (Granting undead or changing the type of ship would probably require python though.)
Having a fleet of Sailors Dirges could very well be too much, as well as detracting from the original. The original should spawn skeletal pirates with either Boarding Party or Amphibious.

Now if a growing fleet of ghost ships is desired, how about implementing it as an event? You'll get a warning about a plague ship wanting to put into port. The choices, let them dock for medical care and spread disease through the city, or refuse them entry and let them die. The second choice will come back to haunt you ... literally. The plague ship return as an Undead barbarian ship that spawns Diseased Corpses. Ships they capture become gain Undead and can spread Disease. If left unchecked for too long, there will be a Plague Fleet controlling the seas of Erebus, occasionally spewing out Diseased Corpses on someone's coast.
 
Now if a growing fleet of ghost ships is desired, how about implementing it as an event? You'll get a warning about a plague ship wanting to put into port. The choices, let them dock for medical care and spread disease through the city, or refuse them entry and let them die. The second choice will come back to haunt you ... literally. The plague ship return as an Undead barbarian ship that spawns Diseased Corpses. Ships they capture become gain Undead and can spread Disease. If left unchecked for too long, there will be a Plague Fleet controlling the seas of Erebus, occasionally spewing out Diseased Corpses on someone's coast.


Wow... that's... grim...

I love it!
 
Another point ist invisible units on the sea. Units like the Kraken or the drowned walk beneath the sea. I think it would be cool if they where invisible.
 
I think that would be mad gay unless stealth detectors like what regular Civ4 has were also implemented.

Giant spiders are pretty ******** as is, now imagine them with more move and nothing like the "forest only" restriction spiders have and the ability to sink whole transports instead of just single units. Yeah.
 
Krakens already have a submerge spell that gives them invisibility (of a different kind that land units have, and not detectable by the same units). I wouldn't mind Sea Serpents having this ability too.
 
You know what we needs to be implemented to make the seas more dangerous. Units that have different movement from land to sea. So you could have units that have only 1 movement on land but 3 sea movement. That way there could be creatures coming out of the sea and ravaging the land. It would also make ships important as you have to use them to destroy the lairs so more monsters wouldn't spawn. It would also make drown units or water walking units more useful in suprise attacks and invading other land masses.

And to boost commerce in harbor city's why not give a city w/ a harbor a chance to spawn a merchant vessel. It's stats are 0/1 and acts like a great merchant, it give gold based on how far away you unload it on another civilization (of corse at a reduced rate than a great merchant) from 5 gold to your own civilization to up to 500 to a far away one? You would also make the launa spawn it at an increased rate (from 0.5% to 1.5% per turn) and would have an increase in each water mana you own (+0.5%) The reason for the automatic spawning is two fold, one if you have to build it, no one would. Two, it would create too much micro management if you had to keep track of it (thats also why it also has a low spawn rate and the ability to just sell it in the city it spawn in for only 5 gold. If you really don't want to micro manage it you don't have to)

This would also help the Launa in production, if you think about it they wouldn't produce more but would gain more gold to buy the items they need. It makes more sense in a RP way and game wise. Also they could also steal other peoples merchant boats if they wanted to and become REAL pirates.
 
And to boost commerce in harbor city's why not give a city w/ a harbor a chance to spawn a merchant vessel. It's stats are 0/1 and acts like a great merchant, it give gold based on how far away you unload it on another civilization (of corse at a reduced rate than a great merchant) from 5 gold to your own civilization to up to 500 to a far away one? You would also make the launa spawn it at an increased rate (from 0.5% to 1.5% per turn) and would have an increase in each water mana you own (+0.5%) The reason for the automatic spawning is two fold, one if you have to build it, no one would. Two, it would create too much micro management if you had to keep track of it (thats also why it also has a low spawn rate and the ability to just sell it in the city it spawn in for only 5 gold. If you really don't want to micro manage it you don't have to)

This would also help the Launa in production, if you think about it they wouldn't produce more but would gain more gold to buy the items they need. It makes more sense in a RP way and game wise. Also they could also steal other peoples merchant boats if they wanted to and become REAL pirates.

I think anything that encourages more units on the sea will naturally encourage more piracy and other sea battles. This could certainly encourage more ships to sail the high seas...
 
And to boost commerce in harbor city's why not give a city w/ a harbor a chance to spawn a merchant vessel. It's stats are 0/1 and acts like a great merchant, it give gold based on how far away you unload it on another civilization (of corse at a reduced rate than a great merchant) from 5 gold to your own civilization to up to 500 to a far away one? You would also make the launa spawn it at an increased rate (from 0.5% to 1.5% per turn) and would have an increase in each water mana you own (+0.5%) The reason for the automatic spawning is two fold, one if you have to build it, no one would. Two, it would create too much micro management if you had to keep track of it (thats also why it also has a low spawn rate and the ability to just sell it in the city it spawn in for only 5 gold. If you really don't want to micro manage it you don't have to)

This is a great idea, and would absolutly increase the need to control the seas. Normally you just sometimes have to build up a transport fleet to stage an invasion, but that is it.
 
You know what we needs to be implemented to make the seas more dangerous. Units that have different movement from land to sea. So you could have units that have only 1 movement on land but 3 sea movement. That way there could be creatures coming out of the sea and ravaging the land. It would also make ships important as you have to use them to destroy the lairs so more monsters wouldn't spawn. It would also make drown units or water walking units more useful in suprise attacks and invading other land masses.

And to boost commerce in harbor city's why not give a city w/ a harbor a chance to spawn a merchant vessel. It's stats are 0/1 and acts like a great merchant, it give gold based on how far away you unload it on another civilization (of corse at a reduced rate than a great merchant) from 5 gold to your own civilization to up to 500 to a far away one? You would also make the launa spawn it at an increased rate (from 0.5% to 1.5% per turn) and would have an increase in each water mana you own (+0.5%) The reason for the automatic spawning is two fold, one if you have to build it, no one would. Two, it would create too much micro management if you had to keep track of it (thats also why it also has a low spawn rate and the ability to just sell it in the city it spawn in for only 5 gold. If you really don't want to micro manage it you don't have to)

This would also help the Launa in production, if you think about it they wouldn't produce more but would gain more gold to buy the items they need. It makes more sense in a RP way and game wise. Also they could also steal other peoples merchant boats if they wanted to and become REAL pirates.


With this idea you would have to also tie in the civics. Like Mercantilism would give you bonus gold for using it your own cities, but no gold for foreign ports. While free trade would increase the amount of trade ships you got but reduce the amount of gold gained (market fluctuations, more gold to the merchant less to state). I'm sure consumption would do something I just can't think of it now.
 
Speaking of Mercantilism, I'd like to see it open up more opportunities for trade. Maybe under Mercantilism a Great Merchant could capture resources in Neutral territory, outside the City limits.

As to the Dirge, something should be done about its tendency to park itself in a barbarian coastal city where it can easily be destroyed.
 
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