Samhain - why?

[PotatoOverdose]

The "Obnoxious world spells and rituals" thread got me thinking, why is Samhain in the game? If the dev team is so keen on removing features that are perceived as useless/cumbersome/clutter (see: War Chariots, sorcery/Summoning merge), why is Samhain in the game? I'll post my comment from the other thread:

As for Samhain, that ritual is one of two things, either:
a) You shoot yourself in the foot by building it early, wasting valuable early that could be used on warriors/workers/settlers, and once you do build it, your defenses are undermanned because you built it and your position overall is significantly weaker agianst your own frostlings, to say nothing of your neighbors.
-or-
b) You toss a bunch of into the trash can because you didn't build it early, seeing as at anytime past the early game, frostlings are nothing but free xp for all of your enemies since they will have large armies easily capable of routing said frostlings.
Edit: Why is this ritual in the game in the first place? It seems like a waste of space that does nothing but hold the AI back.

 

[Imuratep]

I do like the flavor of Samhain, but I don't like the effect it has now. It is never good to completely warp a concept, so let's collect some ideas how to improve it. Perhaps a bigger change could get included in FF, but the mainmod is finished so we should first keep it simple.

 

[Seon]

Haha...... Sorry, but I coudn't resist pushing the vote for "I like pie"

 

[LiDDiS]

The Illian rituals are like a series of steps to to return to the Age of Ice. Currently you don't need to build the Samhain ritual but thematically it seems like this should be the first step in the rituals. So the other rituals should require Samhain to be built first.

It does need to be stronger though, so I propose that it spawns Frost Giants along with the frostlings. This could have a tie-in with Wilboman (who I feel is a bit bland of a hero): Give him the ability to recruit frost giants he defeats. I know Wilbo is supposed to be the last of his kind, but Auric did mention he wouldn't be for long.

 

[Darksaber1]

The Illian rituals are like a series of steps to to return to the Age of Ice. Currently you don't need to build the Samhain ritual but thematically it seems like this should be the first step in the rituals. So the other rituals should require Samhain to be built first.

Agreed. That is how it was implied it would be back when it was added, but it never materialised as such.

 

[Rystic]

In my last game the Illians killed themselves with Samhain.

 

[FireBlaze]

It might actually make since if they got like 5-10 frostlings and samhain. Great time to use statis too

 

[Emptiness]

I like the idea of Samhain, but I have trouble playing the Illians themselves. I wish the AI was better at playing them.

It does need to be stronger though, so I propose that it spawns Frost Giants along with the frostlings.

As it stands now it seems very hit-or-miss. Sometimes I have frostlings wandering around my territory but reluctant to enter it. Other times they all charge straight in and attack. I've never been in danger of being defeated as the result of Samhain, even when the Illians cast it very early. I have seen Mokka smack around 3 other civs, including crushing one completely (with a little help from my Malakim, ironically), so whoever is near his spawnpoint could be in for some pain, especially if Orthus also spawns in their area.

Frost Giants sounds like a good addition to me, or maybe just more frostlings. Also, if the "raging barbarians" option is on (I play with it) then maybe there should be even more frostlings that spawn. Also, I'd like to see them have a strong preference for pillaging improvements on non-ice, non-tundra tiles (while generally leaving ice and tundra improvements alone). That would help increase the chance that they are less of a hindrance to the Illians than to everyone else.

In my last game the Illians killed themselves with Samhain.

I think that improved AI in regard to the Illians choosing when to cast Samhain, and linking Stasis to Samhain, and making proper preparations before casting Samhain are all critical to making the Illains more viable in AI control. As it stands they never seem to do well.

 

[WarKirby]

I like samhain. I didn't want to insult you, though. I selected no, but I don't think you're a fool ^^

I find it's a great thing to use in conjunction with Stasis. Also consider that the illians are slightly less affected by it, because they have cold resistance, and all frostlings have 1 of their strength as Cold element. It really doesn't make a lot of difference to combat odds though.

I believe their winterborn trait balances out the tundra combat bonus that the frostlings get, so that's negated.

If you get decent defences up first, like warriors on top of important resources, then hit samhain and stasis at the same time, it can weaken others significantly.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Samhain as a weapon really doesn't work on the highest levels because the barbs attack so early that in order to complete samhain by that time, you'd pretty much have to be building it from turn 1 - a bad idea, for obvious reasons. Below that, though, you can squeeze out a worker + some defense then start it, and have it done in time to coincide with barb attacks + stasis. Considering that the first 2 in conjunction are brutal even for deity AIs to deal with... yeah.

I think this thread's just an example of a player getting too entrenched in his own preferred settings that his view of overall balance gets warped.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

The fool part was a joke, but I wanted to see how the community felt. I wanted to see whether Samhain seemed worthless because of my playstyle/settings or because of some actual balance issue. Monkeyfinger's statement about being too entrenched in my own settings may well be the case, that is why I posted the poll, and I appreciate the feedback.

 

[WarKirby]

I believe samhain is far from worthless, but I'm certainly not saying it's perfect, either.

Maybe giving the Winterborn trait:

• +25% versus frostling
• +25% versus frostling archer
• +25% versus frostling wolf rider

would be useful, as it would make them have far less effect on the illians than everyone else.

 

[FireBlaze]

At least he isn't flinging insults around at everyone who disagrees.

Although, I think that it would be nice if they changed it up a bit, making it so that they're at least allied to you. It doesn't really make since that a minor frostling, a being who owe their very creation to Mulcram, would decide, after summoning them into this world, to betray him.

 

[WarKirby]

At least he isn't flinging insults around at everyone who disagrees.

Although, I think that it would be nice if they changed it up a bit, making it so that they're at least allied to you. It doesn't really make since that a minor frostling, a being who owe their very creation to Mulcram, would decide, after summoning them into this world, to betray him.

Or this. This could work well too.

I did find it a bit odd that they would attack you.

But might this make it too powerful ?

 

[FireBlaze]

Not really, as its been said before, its weak late game, and a pain to build early game. Removing the part were you shoot yourself in the foot doesn't make it too powerful IMO. Besides, it just makes sense. (Why do I have the feeling I inadvertently quoted someone, or that someones going to single that sentence out?)

 

[Mailbox]

Why not scale the number of frostlings/wolf riders spawned based on game speed? That way the AI could be told to build it later and the player would have the choice to save it and potentially unleash a horde of frostlings.

Mokka should also start with Ice I-II and Death I-II, or some spells at the very least.

 

[Elm]

Actually, the best use of stasis is immediately following Samhain (it should be coded that way for the AI, if it isn't already). Then it isn't a "waste" of hammers, you can make up some of it while everyone else is in stasis.

Also, Samhain is a convenient thing to build when you are between buildings, and have enough warriors. You still grow (unlike building settlers). And it takes a while to get a tech to build science, money or culture.

I have played Illians once, one of the few times I played to the end Build warriors, Samhain, switch to granary, back to Samhain, switch to temple, back to Samhain.

 

[WarKirby]

I have played Illians once, one of the few times I played to the end Build warriors, Samhain, switch to granary, back to Samhain, switch to temple, back to Samhain.

Exactly. This is how I built it in my illian game.

Around the start, spamming too many warriors will just strangle your economy with military maintenance, and while you're researching sloooooowly, you have no buildings to make. Samhain provides a meaningful place to invest those extra hammers, instead of just building then deleting warriors repeatedly til you finish researching something.

 

[zup]

I like pie, but I don't like Samhain. Perhaps if it allowed spawning of frostlings for the rest of the game in tundra and ice? Including owned territory. Makes boreal games a nightmare but one or two map scripts are not enough of a reason to not use it. But also, frostlings should ignore Illians after one of their later rituals is built. White Hand might be too early but maybe. Or you could reduce the chance they target Illians based on how many of the rituals they build. After ascension even the most dimwitted frostling will understand their god is back and they better not anger him. Maybe at this point the frostlings should all be under Illian control with hidden nationality and free of charge. Free scouts, fodder and raiders are always nice.

It is not necessary to boost Illians though, Samhain is what needs a boost.

 

[WarKirby]

Maybe at this point the frostlings should all be under Illian control with hidden nationality and free of charge. Free scouts, fodder and raiders are always nice.

This would be a total pain. At that point in the game, you're done with micromanagement. You just want to fly auric around and destroy things. Being landed with a vast army of weak, useless little things that you have to disband one by one even if you don't want them, would not be fun.

Better to have a "frostling nation" civ or somesuch, that becomes your ally. have them on your team, but keep them under AI control.