Sandman2003
Prince
Punkbass - I know you can run with three rivals on a small map, but this reduces your odds of picking up the three first tier techs at the end of AA and MA.
Sandman's Diplo Fastest Finish
- Thread starter Sandman2003
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boogaboo
Josef Popper 4ever
@Sandman2003 : sorry for spamming on your thread, but I found the following on one of my civ dedicated txt files...
@Eman : On Goody huts..
@Eman : On Goody huts..
@boogaboo: I'd say that's pretty reliable info!....Good find! 
What's "any unit with the Settle AI strategy"?
BTW, I think the Pop-Settler-Odds are pertinent to a UN victory, no?
Thanks Dianthus. (See below)
What's "any unit with the Settle AI strategy"?
BTW, I think the Pop-Settler-Odds are pertinent to a UN victory, no?
Thanks Dianthus. (See below)
With default rules (which you're using for HoF games, right?EMan said:
) this means "Settler". It's possible to create a scenario with lots of different Settler Types, each of which have this "Settle AI strategy" on them. Mods such has DyP and RaR use this.
Sandman2003
Prince
That is good relevant info - doesn't look like spam to me.boogaboo said:
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
I think that the settler is at least as powerful as the Pyramids. And a town (instead of a settler) is as good if it comes early enough and/or is in a very good position.Sandman2003 said:
The way I look at it, the early game is all about growth. And that's pretty much the same as it being about food. (Shield limited starts with wheat flood plains can be exceptions.) Each time I settle a town that increases my growth by adding another source of food.
In the early game the Pyramids effectively double growth by doubling the amount of food.
A very early settler can do the same thing but even sooner! If I pop a settler in 3950BC and he's in a good position with cattle available, I will then grow twice as fast as I would have otherwise.
The perfect start would be a bunch of cattle on rivers, pop a settler in 3950BC, and rush Pyramids via an SGL right after learning the first tech. The result would be nearly doubling growth due to the settler, and nearly doubling it again with the Pyramids.
In practice I think it might take an awful lot of starts to find that perfect one. So I've been playing out starts as long as they aren't too far off that ideal. If I pop a very early settler and have strong start territory and I don't get an SGL from The Wheel then I'll carry on to Writing - Pyramids a bit later than perfect seems ok in that case. If I pop a village in a less than perfect position a few turns after starting then it is already an imperfect start and if I don't get an SGL from The Wheel I'll abandon the game. So I'm actually not always playing through to two techs. The time I spend on each start depends on how far it drifts from the perfect game. Once it feels like it has drifted too far in total then I abandon it.
My thinking was that no Civ starts with The Wheel, so that's a tech I can't get for free in trade by meeting someone quickly. I can get Masonry without popping or learning it by including appropriate rivals. I'm not sure that's good thinking though. It happens too often that it takes a long time to make early contacts. I may revise my approach to this soon.
Small with five rivals, I did a typo. Had five Civs at beginning of Middle Ages getting just two techs among them, not just three.
That does make a lot of sense. I'm still playing them out a bit more but if I don't get one that I play through soon I think I'll adopt a simpler and more systematic approach to the starts.Ronald said:
Sandman2003
Prince
Thanks for the heads up on your thoughts, SirPleb.
I have played out a bunch of additional maps on small, adding in the industrious/sci civs and removing the relegious - so I can go for ceremonial burial first. I have had several bonus settlers or cities, but no SGL yet. However, I played out several of these to late AA in any event to test contact time and GH availability.
I am now convinced that any advantage of being able to get a slightly earlier SGL from CB would be lost owing to the great likelihood of having to research an interim tech while hunting down trade partners for both alphabet and masonry. For this reason, when I exhaust my current supply of mapfinder starts, I will revert to the masonry start.
In addition, it is clear that on a small map the GH supply is sufficiently limited that it will almost inevitably be a problem finishing the AA quickly. Thus I am also going to revert back to standard sized maps.
That is pretty rough luck!SirPleb said:
I have played out a bunch of additional maps on small, adding in the industrious/sci civs and removing the relegious - so I can go for ceremonial burial first. I have had several bonus settlers or cities, but no SGL yet. However, I played out several of these to late AA in any event to test contact time and GH availability.
I am now convinced that any advantage of being able to get a slightly earlier SGL from CB would be lost owing to the great likelihood of having to research an interim tech while hunting down trade partners for both alphabet and masonry. For this reason, when I exhaust my current supply of mapfinder starts, I will revert to the masonry start.
In addition, it is clear that on a small map the GH supply is sufficiently limited that it will almost inevitably be a problem finishing the AA quickly. Thus I am also going to revert back to standard sized maps.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
You guys were right about standard map and about going for Philosophy first. Small maps need too much luck. And Code Of Laws is not a necessary research, especially when there are huts to spare. I switched to standard size with seven rivals. I'm using all the scientific Civs except Babylon so that CB is an unknown tech at the start. My research path is now Ceremonial Burial, Mysticism, Philosophy. Waiting a few turns to pop Writing before researching Philosophy seems to usually be necessary. One of my maps for today is looking like a winner. It is off to a great start - popped a settler, got an SGL for CB, and got a bonus SGL for Mysticism! 
I wish I'd micromanaged the start a bit more but no matter. I think I'll use the spare SGL for Colossus when I get a coastal town.
I wish I'd micromanaged the start a bit more but no matter. I think I'll use the spare SGL for Colossus when I get a coastal town.
Sandman2003
Prince
That is deja vu for me. My current map, now standard, I popped a settler, got an SGL on masonry, another on writing, and a third on education. Unfortunately, the settler wasn;t that close to the capital, I popped no less than 6 'skilled' warriors, a bunch of cash and maps , so that I ran out of GHs on standard, and my MA free tech was chivalry. Still I will play it through to the finish. It will be interesting to compare notes.SirPleb said:One of my maps for today is looking like a winner. It is off to a great start - popped a settler, got an SGL for CB, and got a bonus SGL for Mysticism!
Sandman2003 said:
The free early settler opens up lots of possiblities for your future path, not to mention it can nearly double your production, really early. I just played an attempt and getting a city (not a settler) in 3900 is very nice.
The question of Masonry/Wheel could be preference. However, there are no science civs that start with wheel. With expansionist you can expect to meet everyone and trade for all but Wheel of the first tier. This allows you to save huts for the other techs.
I usually hold off popping after the first few, when I'm only trying to get that settler or city, and just find the other civs. In chief the AI won't get huts unless they are in city expansion so I grab those up before expansion would get them (this is the second level expansion, i'm not likely to get any from the first).
Another thing to consider, during the time you're researching wheel/writing the AI *could* finish something, ie Iron Working which is pretty popular, considering every civ is going to have Bronze already. So if you hold off popping until after you've got all first tier, writing and iron. Also if you pass Wheel off as soon as you get it one of the civs my do horses for you as well, but thats less likely.
I fan out and explore the map picking up any risky huts, then a little before writing finishes I start heading back getting all the huts on the way. Once home they disband for 2 shields to libraries.
I played a small, and got a ton of warriors, at least 8, but thankfully the last hut gave me construction. I didn't get monarchy from a hut, but thats not a problem. This is cutting it pretty close, but with that and the faster research in small I reached MA in 2030. Getting theology I finished education in 1200 BC. I abandoned the game though, I've yet to get a science leader, and I went to democracy, which was about 40 turns with research and anarchy. Course this is unquantified for me right now since I haven't played many games yet, but it seems excessive. Since you said you went thru IA with almost all 4 turn in republic(?) my next attempt will skip it.
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
Not entirely correct: 4+ Civs out of all 31 must be able to build that unit. It does work if the unit is enabled by a starting tech for Civs that are not in this game
. Of course, for the unmodded game, the only thig about Skilled Merc is that Sumeria cannot get Warriors, but gets Horseman once she and 3 more players know HBR. This should as well mean Sumeria has a higher chance of getting Barbs before than any other Civ (since one 'good' outcome is removed form the equitation).
Sandman2003
Prince
@Smirk - I think I am coming around to understand the power of the early settler. If you combine an early settler with proximity to the capital, fresh water and bonus food, then there is no doubt it can be very powerful. My early city in the game at the beginning of this thread lacked the proximity ot the capital, and the bonus food, and so wasn't such a huge boost to my overall early expansion.
Your strategy of holding off popping GHs until you have met and traded with all the AI (except initial ones for bonus settler, and those in danger of being popped by bordere expansion) is a concept I contemplated doing but didn't do it, before deciding to switch back to standard. Although, it may actually be worth doing on standard as well. Certainly on my current game where i ran out of GHs on standard vefore completing the AA, it could have come in useful, but then again, it was a particularly poor run on GHs! It will be interesting to see how you go.
MA in 2030BC - that is very impressive! And, yes, on republic it doesn't seem that hard to get the whole IA down to 4 turn research, certainly the minimum cost of 8 turns to research PP and democracy, followed by a longer anarchy period, doesn't seem worth it to me.
Your strategy of holding off popping GHs until you have met and traded with all the AI (except initial ones for bonus settler, and those in danger of being popped by bordere expansion) is a concept I contemplated doing but didn't do it, before deciding to switch back to standard. Although, it may actually be worth doing on standard as well. Certainly on my current game where i ran out of GHs on standard vefore completing the AA, it could have come in useful, but then again, it was a particularly poor run on GHs! It will be interesting to see how you go.
MA in 2030BC - that is very impressive! And, yes, on republic it doesn't seem that hard to get the whole IA down to 4 turn research, certainly the minimum cost of 8 turns to research PP and democracy, followed by a longer anarchy period, doesn't seem worth it to me.
Sandman2003
Prince
OK, I have submitted (and had accepted) my second attempt on this goal with mixed success. The good:-
- early popped settler
- masonry SGL
- 4 SGLs in total
The bad:-
- free settler was not near the capital, fresh water and food. I ended up compromising by moving some turns until next to bonus food, and extending fresh water to the city.
- appalling GH luck that left me having to research construction at the end, and being slower to republic etc. I literally ran out of GHs with all territory uncovered on a standard map (on small I expect that).
- chivalry was the bonus MA tech (33% chance)
- ironclads was the bonus IA tech (ok so this one was 60% chance since the AI didn't manage to pick up nationalism either, but still...)
I still improved over the first submission. I used the SGLs on Pyramids, Colossus, Copernicus and UN.
Timeline:
3700BC – Pop GH to get settler
3050BC – Masonry gives SGL!
Meet Greece – trade for alphabet
Get CB from a hut
Rush Pyramids
3000BC - Meet Korea trade for warrior code
2950BC – Pop Mysticism
2670BC – Pop the Wheel
2590BC – Meet Byzantines – nothing to trade
2390BC – Pop Horseback Riding
2310BC – Meet Babylon
2270BC – Learn writing, get 2nd sgl
2230BC – Pop Literature
2190BC – Colossus built
2110BC – Pop Iron Working
2030BC – Pop Maths
1910BC – Pop Code of Laws
Learn Philosophy, get republic for free – revolt
5 turn anarchy
1790BC – Pop Polytheism
1725BC – Become a republic
We will probably have to research three techs owing ot lack of GHs left – too many warriors, cash and money
1875BC – Pop currency
1600BC – Map making learnt, construction to go – scarcity of GHs left = we will research this
1575BC – Gamble one turn research as we found one more GH, but we got money!
1425BC – Learn Construction enter MA, score chivalry as free tech
1175BC – Learn Theology
1125BC – Complete MoM – kick off GA
1050BC – Learn Education and get another SGL
1000BC – QSC stats
22 cities
66 pop
22 workers
4 settlers
3 scouts
3 warriors
825BC – Complete Astronomy (in 5)
800BC – Use SGL to build Copernicus
730BC – Gunpowder comes in
710BC – Forbidden Palace built
650BC – Banking comes in GA over
570BC – Chemistry comes in
Rest in 4 turns
330BC – Magnetism in
250BC – Enter IA, Sci civs can only give me steam and medicine (no nationalism), and to boot I pick up iron clads!!! Grr!
170BC – Complete Newton’s Uni
150BC – Industrialisation comes in giving us another SGL (#4)
50BC – Electricity comes in
50AD – Replaceable parts comes in, thereafter 4 turn research, but I had to delay ToE build by three turns to match research and build completion dates!
310AD – Refining comes in, ToE built get atomic theory and electronics
Finish IA at four turn rate
470AD – Unable to trade for fission via big picture
480AD – With free tech can trade for fission, build UN with SGL rush. No nationalism so everyone is polite, but not gracious. Not certain who will be our UN opponent. F8 seems to suggest Germany, so declare war on them and bring in two AI in MAs against them. The vote is against the Byzantines (doh), we still win – 1 against, 1 abstention (Germany) all the rest for.
490AD – Diplo victory.
At least I broke 500AD!
- early popped settler
- masonry SGL
- 4 SGLs in total
The bad:-
- free settler was not near the capital, fresh water and food. I ended up compromising by moving some turns until next to bonus food, and extending fresh water to the city.
- appalling GH luck that left me having to research construction at the end, and being slower to republic etc. I literally ran out of GHs with all territory uncovered on a standard map (on small I expect that).
- chivalry was the bonus MA tech (33% chance)
- ironclads was the bonus IA tech (ok so this one was 60% chance since the AI didn't manage to pick up nationalism either, but still...)
I still improved over the first submission. I used the SGLs on Pyramids, Colossus, Copernicus and UN.
Timeline:
3700BC – Pop GH to get settler
3050BC – Masonry gives SGL!
Meet Greece – trade for alphabet
Get CB from a hut
Rush Pyramids
3000BC - Meet Korea trade for warrior code
2950BC – Pop Mysticism
2670BC – Pop the Wheel
2590BC – Meet Byzantines – nothing to trade
2390BC – Pop Horseback Riding
2310BC – Meet Babylon
2270BC – Learn writing, get 2nd sgl
2230BC – Pop Literature
2190BC – Colossus built
2110BC – Pop Iron Working
2030BC – Pop Maths
1910BC – Pop Code of Laws
Learn Philosophy, get republic for free – revolt
5 turn anarchy
1790BC – Pop Polytheism
1725BC – Become a republic
We will probably have to research three techs owing ot lack of GHs left – too many warriors, cash and money
1875BC – Pop currency
1600BC – Map making learnt, construction to go – scarcity of GHs left = we will research this
1575BC – Gamble one turn research as we found one more GH, but we got money!
1425BC – Learn Construction enter MA, score chivalry as free tech
1175BC – Learn Theology
1125BC – Complete MoM – kick off GA
1050BC – Learn Education and get another SGL
1000BC – QSC stats
22 cities
66 pop
22 workers
4 settlers
3 scouts
3 warriors
825BC – Complete Astronomy (in 5)
800BC – Use SGL to build Copernicus
730BC – Gunpowder comes in
710BC – Forbidden Palace built
650BC – Banking comes in GA over
570BC – Chemistry comes in
Rest in 4 turns
330BC – Magnetism in
250BC – Enter IA, Sci civs can only give me steam and medicine (no nationalism), and to boot I pick up iron clads!!! Grr!
170BC – Complete Newton’s Uni
150BC – Industrialisation comes in giving us another SGL (#4)
50BC – Electricity comes in
50AD – Replaceable parts comes in, thereafter 4 turn research, but I had to delay ToE build by three turns to match research and build completion dates!
310AD – Refining comes in, ToE built get atomic theory and electronics
Finish IA at four turn rate
470AD – Unable to trade for fission via big picture
480AD – With free tech can trade for fission, build UN with SGL rush. No nationalism so everyone is polite, but not gracious. Not certain who will be our UN opponent. F8 seems to suggest Germany, so declare war on them and bring in two AI in MAs against them. The vote is against the Byzantines (doh), we still win – 1 against, 1 abstention (Germany) all the rest for.
490AD – Diplo victory.
At least I broke 500AD!
OK, I am now confused. How do you get Chivalry as your free tech? Presumably there's a way to trade after getting the last tech from one age and before being given the free tech for the new age, but exactly how do I do that?
Sandman2003
Prince
Yes there is. You need to access the big picture before receiving your free tech. I think I usually access it via the change of age splash screen. You then head to F4 call up all the sci AIs you have deliberately included as rivals and trade/gift all compulsory techs so that they also enter the new age and receive a free tech. When they have all been boosted to the new age say the MA, you should be able to trade for all the first tier techs (you are probably still up literature and the republic, plus the duplicated techs are at a discount to you, but not necessarily the AI, since they don't know each other etc). When you finally leave the big picture, you will have received a random free tech, but it will be a second tier tech.sanabas said:
Unfortunately, this game my free 2nd tier techs were both optional, unnecessary techs in this game.
Sandman2003
Prince
Thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately, I suspect that this means that SirPleb will have done way better!LulThyme said:
Good game!
I just quit another attempt that was destined for failure, I got Chivalry and Facism, and no Medicine. It could have been around 550 AD, but I dropped to 6 turn research which I suspect was because I had to connect both coal and iron before I could start railing, and both were in the mountains. Far too few workers, I suspect making the pyramids would have improved this aspect.
Quick question, what are you trading mid-turn when going to IA? MA is easy since you'll have literature and republic, I spent 4 turns researching MT to trade, which worked. And then Fission being the last you can trade what you get, or not if you get Fission.
I just quit another attempt that was destined for failure, I got Chivalry and Facism, and no Medicine. It could have been around 550 AD, but I dropped to 6 turn research which I suspect was because I had to connect both coal and iron before I could start railing, and both were in the mountains. Far too few workers, I suspect making the pyramids would have improved this aspect.
Quick question, what are you trading mid-turn when going to IA? MA is easy since you'll have literature and republic, I spent 4 turns researching MT to trade, which worked. And then Fission being the last you can trade what you get, or not if you get Fission.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
I've played further from my good start today. I didn't use negative gpt trades since they've been ruled out. (As I think they should be.) I did use running at a deficit without penalty to keep my research rate as high as I could. I've reached the Industrial Age at 610BC. I've been lucky to get a free required second level tech at entry to both the Middle Ages and the Industrial Age. With seven rivals it has been easy to get and trade for the first level techs in each era, luck was with me in getting something useful after that. I'm not sure how soon I can get to four turn research in the IA. My Golden Age has ended and I'm showing six turns for Industrialization. I hope to get that down to five.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
I traded Republic and Literature! I was able to get all the first tier MA techs after gifting six rivals forward, so I left one AI way back in Ancient Times. I included that AI in the boost to IA and then used those way back techs to trade for its IA tech, then leveraged that for the other IA techs. I'm liking this seven scientific rival thingSmirk said:
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