Saturn Embassy

[IamJohn]

A question, does the end 500 hammers amount scale as well with technology level?

I'm also a bit concerned that it will seem like something that will be easy for us to bear, but if they are the ones paying may be harder to pay as the weaker party.

 

[General_W]

We could make the 500 scale - that's not a bad idea - but I didn't for the sake of simplicity.
500 hammers of aid is pretty nice in any era of the game... and it's only the minimum anyway.

As for your second point - if we think it's going to be too burdensome for them (and we don't need the help anyway) we can always unilaterally offer to reduce what they owe us. Then we get friendship bonus points

 

[Krill]

Section 3 is way too wordy. And the values are way off.

If we (and by we I mean both teams) do want to add a defense clause to it, we should do. But adding values to it isn't going to be useful. Ultimately, we don't want Saturn to be destroyed, unless we can take down Cav or Kaz completely.

I think the best way to solve this is probably the simplist: ask Saturn if they want the clause, and what they would want it to say. The rest of it is pretty solid, with the following sole exception:

• Saturn already have a tech deal with Kaz (Saturn are owed maths, Kaz are owed Fuedalism), so we'd need to say that all current deals that are signed should be consumated asap.

PS. I'd have commented earlier but I just watched the season finale for LOST. *&^*&*%&*^&U%(&*($*"(&$&*(£%^($^&*%$*(%$^ is all I can really say...

 

[ruff_hi]

The PASS​

Permanent Alliance of Saturn-SANCTA
Draft 1​

An agreement between Saturn (Persia) and SANCTA (Netherlands).
Whereby it is recognized that the thee-way alliance of foreign powers is poised to run away with this game if they are not stopped.
blah blah blah
------------------------------

Hey - can I borrow this (with suitable acknowledgment and name changes) for use in our poly demo game?

 

[General_W]

@Ruff - sure! go for it.
EDIT: actually - don't give me credit though. I don't want anyone on other teams (that may have accounts on Poly) figguring out that this is the deal we have with Saturn. So just go ahead and pretend you wrote it if you want!

@Krill - good catch on the tech deal already in place. I'll fix that in version 2.
I think the best way to "ask Saturn if they want the clause" is to go ahead and offer it in our draft proposal. If they don't want it, they can always ask for it to come out.
We should make it as good as possible - then propose it. Much, much, much faster (and gives us more control) vs. just asking if they're interested in the concept.

If you don't like my numbers (which I just made up based on nothing - so no offense taken) then please suggest some better ones!
Once I hear what you (or Memphus?) think would be better for the defense hammer proposal I'll craft version 2 and post it here.
Hopefully that'll happen before we head out on the road!

 

[IamJohn]

If you don't like my numbers (which I just made up based on nothing - so no offense taken) then please suggest some better ones!
Once I hear what you (or Memphus?) think would be better for the defense hammer proposal I'll craft version 2 and post it here.
Hopefully that'll happen before we head out on the road!

TBH I'm not sure why we need the numbers, if we're trusting each other with someone as important as techs (and in such a non-organized manner), why are we structuring things so much with something that seems quite a bit more trivial? Sure hammers are important, but imo we should just be saying something along the lines of "supply material/financial aid as the nonattacked member is able in a militarily significent manner" or something along those lines.

 

[Krill]

@Krill - good catch on the tech deal already in place. I'll fix that in version 2.
I think the best way to "ask Saturn if they want the clause" is to go ahead and offer it in our draft proposal. If they don't want it, they can always ask for it to come out.
We should make it as good as possible - then propose it. Much, much, much faster (and gives us more control) vs. just asking if they're interested in the concept.

I agree that we should send something along the lines of a defense treaty in the proposal, but here's the problem:

Because of where Angle is, we will have great difficulty in providing assistance to Saturn in case Cav attack them; we'll have to deal with Kaz, and possible attacks from Cav heading to us as well, and maybe even MS if they are to our south with Kaz (the latter is doubtful though IMO). So for our own protection we're going to need alot of troops in the SW, as well some fast units in our east to deal with any landings (and either some decent defensive units/seige spaced between the cities, or a kickass navy that can handle Cav and Kaz at the same time).

If Cav were to attack in the next 30-40 turns we wouldn't have a hope in hell of providing backup due to the distance between us, unless we had a massive army. And if we had an army that size we wouldn't be waiting for Saturn to be attacked, we'd be planning a war of agression anyway.

EDIT:

Thinking about it a little more, the best thing is for Saturn to get Fued quickly and hide behind CG longbows, using cats and HA to kill any siege. This'll work until mass drafting happens, or cannons appear, by which point the whole game dynamics will be very different, and we should then be able to support each other much more effectively.

I think that we are possibly best suited to not being bound by a treaty to protect Saturn. We'll be bound to support them by game theory instead. We can offer them ivory and war elephants are a great leveller.

And on the note of resources, we might want to suggest that we both get first refusal on resource trades. f.e. We can get ivory hooked up eot t94, which we can offer to Saturn. Personally I'd like to get my hands on their silver, but we are going to need extra health res shortly.

The list of what we are always going to need is:

• Deer
• Crabs
• Rice (prior to around t120)
• Corn (prior to t105)
• Pigs (Prior to t110)

For happiness:

• Silver
• Furs
• Silk (near to Gelderlander)
• Dye (near to Angle, will take a while)
• Spice (we could settle them)

 

[dutchfire]

I wouldn't put specific numbers about defence in, just a clause that says we'll protect each other. If they want, we can make it more specific.

Also, it's the Netherlands, not Netherlands /nitpick.

 

[General_W]

Ok! You’ve all persuaded me
I’ve fuzzed out the defense clause, added a line about resources to the Article 2, exempted Saturn’s current tech deal, and added a key article to the name of our glorious nation

Here’s version 2:

------------------------

The PASS​

Permanent Alliance of Saturn-SANCTA
Draft 2​

An agreement between Saturn (Persia) and SANCTA (the Netherlands).
Whereby it is recognized that the thee-way alliance of foreign powers is poised to run away with this game if they are not stopped.

Whereby it is recognized that it is in our mutual self interest to fully cooperate until we are the only two remaining powers in the game.



Article 1: Non-Aggression

It is hereby agreed that we will not attack each other or provide aid, in any form, to anyone fighting any member of the alliance.​

Article 2: Exclusivity

It is hereby agreed that we will not trade or gift technology, offer financial aid or information about alliance plans, or provide military support in any form to non-members of the Alliance. Exceptions to this can be made only by express mutual agreement. (Saturn’s current Math for Feudalism deal is also exempted)
It is furthermore agreed that we will offer each other first choice on any resource trades. Only if the other member of the alliance is uninterested or unable to make a reasonable trade for a resource, will we then seek to trade outside of the alliance.
​

Article 3: Defense

It is hereby agreed that if either member of the alliance comes under direct military attack by an enemy power and the other alliance member is NOT under direct (or imminently direct) attack - the Alliance member who is not under attack will provide significant material and/or financial aid as quickly as they are able.

This defense provision does NOT apply to offensive wars started by a member of the Alliance for purposes of conquest. (Pre-emptive attacks against an invading force are allowed and still count as defense).
​

Article 4: Technology Cooperation

It is hereby agreed that we will cooperate on technology in a generous fashion with eachother.
It is hereby agreed that we will pursue rapid technological advance in good faith – and not attempt to abuse the alliance.
(ie - No member of the Alliance shall stockpile gold at a rate greater than is reasonably necessary for general strategic concerns.)
It is hereby agreed that we will openly and forthrightly share research plans to avoid any duplication of effort and ensure rapid progress.
It is hereby agreed that all technology shall be shared openly, upon request, without regard to beaker value, with eachother.​

Article 5: End of the Alliance

This alliance will end when Saturn and SANCTA are the only two remaining teams in the game, or upon express mutual agreement to terminate the alliance.
It is hereby agreed that the non-aggression (article 1) part of this alliance will remain in-force for a minimum of 10 turns after the last foreign power is eliminated from the game (either by destruction or capitulation).​

Should we send this in a text version to Saturn for their feedback, and then promise to make a fancy one if they like it?
Or should I make a fancy one before I go so we can just send them that?

 

[Krill]

Article 2: Exclusivity

It is hereby agreed that we will not trade or gift technology, offer financial aid or information about alliance plans, or provide military support in any form to non-members of the Alliance. Exceptions to this can be made only by express mutual agreement. (Saturn’s current Math for Feudalism deal is also exempted)
It is furthermore agreed that we will offer each other first choice on any resource trades. Only if the other member of the alliance is uninterested or unable to make a reasonable trade for a resource, will we then seek to trade outside of the alliance.

Italicised: If we are in an alliance, then trading a resource for a resource is unnecesarry, if one team needs a resource they should ask for it; helping an ally is helping ourselves after all.

Bolded: While we might want to trade resources outside the alliance...I don't think we're going to want to. Only resources we seem to be missing between the two of us are; deer, crabs, wine, incense. And because of the nature of the current diplomatic landscape, we will never get a resource trade in a 3v2.

Leave in the line by all means, I'm just illustrating what'll likely happen. I think the rest of the treaty is solid. If need be we can copy paste the words into an email and send that to Saturn; all they need to do is agree to it in an email and we can do a fancy one if we want to afterwards IMO.


As an aside, one important point is that Parkin said that Saturn were lonely; one way to get one their good side, and stay there, is involve them in all decisions we make as an alliance. Don't act like the major partner, but involve them in all the decisions. One possible way to do this, but looking far forward to the future would be a (hidden) forum on a separate board that both teams members can join..

 

[dutchfire]

One possible way to do this, but looking far forward to the future would be a (hidden) forum on a separate board that both teams members can join..

I don't think that's generally a good idea. Having lots of chats is better IMO.

 

[General_W]

agreed on the resources - but it's best to cover it in the treaty just in case, I think.

What about a Saturn-vs-SANCTA pitboss game? could be kind of fun. Especially if it's played on a small map with only 2 teams.
Do we have a host for something like that?

 

[Krill]

I don't think that's generally a good idea. Having lots of chats is better IMO.

Just an idea, and as long as the game admins have access to such a forum, and screenshots were not posted until paper, and all other game rules are followed, it'd be ok IMO. It would help to keep everyone informed, and everyone could contribute instead of in chats where few people contribute, and then people read but don't comment.

agreed on the resources - but it's best to cover it in the treaty just in case, I think.

What about a Saturn-vs-SANCTA pitboss game? could be kind of fun. Especially if it's played on a small map with only 2 teams.
Do we have a host for something like that?

1. I agree.
   
   
2. Possible, you may want to float that idea. I think Ronnie is a possible host IIRC.

 

[dutchfire]

A social group?

 

[Krill]

Wouldn't be hidden.

I think Parkin has his own web forum IIRC, so he might be able to do such a thing, however.

 

[Whomp]

Nice work. This is very promising.

 

[Ronnie1]

Just an idea, and as long as the game admins have access to such a forum, and screenshots were not posted until paper, and all other game rules are followed, it'd be ok IMO. It would help to keep everyone informed, and everyone could contribute instead of in chats where few people contribute, and then people read but don't comment.

1. I agree.
   
   
2. Possible, you may want to float that idea. I think Ronnie is a possible host IIRC.

I could host that game if we are interested!

 

[Krill]

Namaste Saturn,

We accept your proposal for OB and No Aggression until 1AD from this turn.

While you are discussing our proposal regarding an alliance, we would like to gift you Sailing. This will allow you to connect up you new city to the trade network immediately, and benefits us with a full set of trade routes.

Is this proposal acceptable to you? If it is, please accept the deal offered in game.

If there is anything you wish to talk or chat about, please don't hesitate to email, pm or contact me via MSN.

Krill, Daimyo of the Interior, SANCTA
Waves and spray, stormy
Formidable Enemies
Powerful Partners

Message Sent!

---

Proposal for the outline of a quick letter to Saturn. We have already sent accepted OB to them, and they proposed a peace deal until 1AD, which we should accept IMO. As Memphus pointed out earlier, we do want Saturn to get Sailing before they finish this turn so we can get five trade routes with them instead of one (4 commerce, after all).

I'm unsure of offering the galley as well at this juncture; I'm happy to gift it to them to scout towards us, but until they have agreed to an alliance I think it might be prudent to not take them for granted. Maybe offering them the galley if they agree to the alliance now would be a good idea? Or does that seem like strongarming them?

Anyone elses thoughts on this issue?

And a minor point. If Anyone from Saturn collars me in a chat again, are you guys OK with me talking with them until G_W gets back off his holiday?

 

[azzaman333]

Don't bother with a galley offer IMO. If they ask, we should consider it, but dont offer it.

 

[IamJohn]

Yep, and feel free to chat with them, they already know you and you know well where we stand in regards to the options available for diplomacy.