Saturns signal?

[Urederra]

Seeing it? You're supposed to read it Movie sucks balls compared to the novel.

I guess that suck balls means 'bad'. Interesting expresion. (It doesn't look that bad to me)

In my opinion, the movie is far better than the book, which is just a narration of what happens in the movie. (the movie came first, BTW)

 

[warpus]

OMIGOD! Intelligent life in a bucket! To think Ive lived to see this day! Warpus, but come on, isnt there a big difference between a Saturn, and a bucket of water? And the monstrous thing on Saturn appears to be a permanent feature.

BTW, as you can clearly see from the photo that you yourself have provided, the hexagon in the bucket of water is being caused by 'intelligent design' AKA humans. That propeller thing in the center isnt a natural feature is it, Or the bucket itself?

The defense rests, Your Honor.

A human (or machine) might be spinning the bucket, but the resulting shape is proof that such shapes can result when "things" spin. And since you don't need an intelligent agent to get something to spin, this is just proof that shapes such as these can occur without the intervention of an intelligent agent.

In my opinion, the movie is far better than the book, which is just a narration of what happens in the movie. (the movie came first, BTW)

The movie came out first.. however, Clarke was working on the novel at the same time that he was working on the movie with Kubrick. Furthermore, it was based on various short stories he had already written in the 50s and 60s. So it's not like the novel was based on the movie.. nor was the movie based on the novel.. I enjoyed the movie, but enjoyed the novel far more

 

[Urederra]

The movie is based mainly in a short story called "the sentinel" also written by Clarke, if I recall correctly. I didn't like the novel, anyway, I read it after seeing the movie and I didn't like it. It might be just me, It is a matter of opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, they are like the exits of our digestive system, everybody has one, and all of them stinks. .

 

[Winner]

The movie is based mainly in a short story called "the sentinel" also written by Clarke, if I recall correctly. I didn't like the novel, anyway, I read it after seeing the movie and I didn't like it. It might be just me, It is a matter of opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, they are like the exits of our digestive system, everybody has one, and all of them stinks. .

I had read the novel before I saw the movie, and I liked the novel more

 

[IglooDame]

OMIGOD! Intelligent life in a bucket! To think Ive lived to see this day! Warpus, but come on, isnt there a big difference between a Saturn, and a bucket of water?

Actually, they're alarmingly similar - both are made mostly out of plastic nowadays, and both seem to contain formless unintelligent blobs that are mostly water.

 

[bhsup]

Actually, they're alarmingly similar - both are made mostly out of plastic nowadays, and both seem to contain formless unintelligent blobs that are mostly water.

You just finished watching that horrible "ugly bags of mostly water" Star Trek (TNG) episode, didn't you?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

A human (or machine) might be spinning the bucket, but the resulting shape is proof that such shapes can result when "things" spin. And since you don't need an intelligent agent to get something to spin, this is just proof that shapes such as these can occur without the intervention of an intelligent agent.

Id like to call an expert witness.

"This is a very strange feature, lying in a precise geometric fashion with six nearly equally straight sides," said Kevin Baines, atmospheric expert and member of Cassini's visual and infrared mapping spectrometer team at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. "We've never seen anything like this on any other planet. Indeed, Saturn's thick atmosphere, where circularly-shaped waves and convective cells dominate, is perhaps the last place you'd expect to see such a six-sided geometric figure, yet there it is."

Indeed, there it is, nonetheless. So, while hexagons can form naturally in crystals, and artificially in spinning buckets, theyve never been seen on any other planet, and the expert states that Saturns atmosphere is the last place youd expect to see a six sided figure. So theres nothing natural, expected, predictable or mundane about a permanent hexagon appearing in the atmosphere of Saturn, because the only option which is being considered is a natural one.

If we begin knowing for a fact that everything we encounter in the cosmos is a product of natural processes, as opposed to intelligent beings (who may look, be, and think so very differently from us that they resemble no living thing we've ever laid eyes on, or imagined) then we may never discover intelligent life in the universe, even though all along, we were surrounded by it.

 

[Urederra]

So, while hexagons can form naturally in crystals, and artificially in spinning buckets, theyve never been seen on any other planet, and the expert states that Saturns atmosphere is the last place youd expect to see a six sided figure.

So, If reality doesn't fit with theory, then screw reality?

If the experts say that Saturns atmosphere is the last place they would expect to see a six sided figure, then I'd recommend them to revise their theories, they seem to be off quite a bit.

 

[warpus]

If we begin knowing for a fact that everything we encounter in the cosmos is a product of natural processes, as opposed to intelligent beings (who may look, be, and think so very differently from us that they resemble no living thing we've ever laid eyes on, or imagined) then we may never discover intelligent life in the universe, even though all along, we were surrounded by it.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. There is nothing to suggest that the hexagon was created by an intelligent agent.

Until such evidence arises, the most sensible approach is to study the hexagon as a natural phenomenon and determine how it could have formed.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. There is nothing to suggest that the hexagon was created by an intelligent agent.

Until such evidence arises, the most sensible approach is to study the hexagon as a natural phenomenon and determine how it could have formed.

Instead of studying everything like a natural phenomenon, why not study something like this as a phenomenon? Why is it necessary to begin the investigation with an assumption? At no point is the possibility even entertained that it could conceivably have been created by intelligent life of some kind, as a signal. When you stop ruling it out, just because, suddenly a giant impossible hexagon in the atmosphere of a gas giant seems like a pretty obvious way to send a signal. So lets go completely nuts now: if you were a Giant Saturnian Gasbag and wanted to signal your presence in some way, what better way would there be than to create a geometric symbol in Saturns upper atmosphere? Dont we look for math in radio signals, when looking for ET civs? Why ignore similar signals when we see them etched into a planets atmosphere?

 

[Masquerouge]

OMIGOD! Intelligent life in a bucket! To think Ive lived to see this day! Warpus, but come on, isnt there a big difference between a Saturn, and a bucket of water? And the monstrous thing on Saturn appears to be a permanent feature.

Actually, Saturn is a lot like a spinning bucket, especially on the spinning part.

 

[drkodos]

The novel is certainly more expository.



But the film is seminal and trancends the ideas put forth in the original treatise.

if you were a Giant Saturnian Gasbag and wanted to signal your presence in some way, what better way would there be than to create a geometric symbol in Saturns upper atmosphere?

Why not do as the rest of the "intelligent" life in the solar system does....post on a website....

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

In any case, here is a picture of water inside a spinning bucket:

Perhaps it's just me, but that's a Pentagon, not a Hexagon.

 

[Mise]

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070327_saturn_hex.html

Really interesting story, from a number of angles. The one that interests me in particular is this: If from an orbiting satellite we spotted a large perfectly hexagonal structure on the Earths surface, any scientist who tried to explain it as being formed by natural geologic processes would be laughed out of the room, down the hall, and out into the street. But because its not on Earth, the same treatment would be given to anyone who proposed that it was made by someone or something, by some means and technology unknown to us at this time. I already know that virtually everyone here will automatically conclude its a natural phenomenon, but Id like to hear some explanations as to how that could be. The laws of physics are the same on Saturn as on Earth, right? So why isnt this a textbook example of humanity stumbling across evidence of non human intelligence out there in space, and not recognizing it for what it is?

Because, on Earth, there is an abundance of near-perfectly shaped objects, all of which are made by man. Since, to my knowledge, there are no humans orbiting Saturn's North Pole, whereas there are thousands upon thousands of known naturally occurring gas formations (what with it being a gas giant 'n' all), it's a fairly safe bet that it's something peculiar about Saturn's atmosphere that we don't know about yet.

Seems to me that assuming "aliens" is like assuming "god" -- stifle's genuine scientific interest.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Perhaps we should refrain from identifying it as either natural OR crafted, and simply refer to it as a "weird hexagon in the N of Saturn." After all, it can't be that hard to figure out what this thing is, just send a probe or something into it. Or can't they look at that spectrum thing and figure out what it's composed of?

 

[IglooDame]

The geometric shape is centered on Saturn's south pole, correct? In that case it seems to me that postulating some sort of spinning interacting with some other force is the obvious hypothesis. If it wasn't centered on a pole, I think everyone involved would be much more likely to consider non-natural causes ahead of natural ones (after they were done wetting their pants in excitement, that is).

@VRWC: I haven't seen TNG in weeks, not sure what episode you're referring to.

 

[Mise]

Perhaps we should refrain from identifying it as either natural OR crafted, and simply refer to it as a "weird hexagon in the N of Saturn." After all, it can't be that hard to figure out what this thing is, just send a probe or something into it. Or can't they look at that spectrum thing and figure out what it's composed of?

They'll figure out what it was formed from one way or another. The way they will go about doing this is to assume it was natural, and then apply all known laws of nature to it (i.e. apply models of Atmospheric Physics to it) and try and figure out a natural cause. Since we don't have a model for how aliens create polar-orbiting, hexagonal clouds, we'll have to stick with what we know.

 

[Perfection]

Let's for a moment assume it's not a natural phenomena. How did the aliens do it? Why is there only sign funny clouds? where are the aliens from? Why didn't we see them before? The assumption that it's natural is a good one because the alternatives are absurdly complicated and would involve all sorts of crazy stuff as well as flying in the face of everything what we knew.

Just because it's an unexplained mystery doesn't mean you should go off the deep end.

A Hexagonal pattern like this isn't hard to make mathematically. A standing wave with a wavelength of 1/6 the circumference of the circle would produce something resmembling the structure, that's something that's quite possible to be brought by natural means.

 

[History_Buff]

Perhaps it's just me, but that's a Pentagon, not a Hexagon.

Yeah, it is, but you can make different shapes by altering the angular velocity of the bucket or the fluid/slurry inside.

Indeed, there it is, nonetheless. So, while hexagons can form naturally in crystals, and artificially in spinning buckets, theyve never been seen on any other planet, and the expert states that Saturns atmosphere is the last place youd expect to see a six sided figure. So theres nothing natural, expected, predictable or mundane about a permanent hexagon appearing in the atmosphere of Saturn, because the only option which is being considered is a natural one.

It may be the last place we'd expect to find one, but we don't really know too much about Saturn do we? And how many Gas Giant's poles have been visited?

If we begin knowing for a fact that everything we encounter in the cosmos is a product of natural processes, as opposed to intelligent beings (who may look, be, and think so very differently from us that they resemble no living thing we've ever laid eyes on, or imagined) then we may never discover intelligent life in the universe, even though all along, we were surrounded by it.

Intelligent beings still obey the laws of nature. The first step is to run the calculation, and find out how it's happening. By analyzing the flow, and what we know about the composition of Saturn, and fluid dynamics, we can determine the cause. It may be a way to determine the rotation of Saturn, it may be that it's the Goa'uld.

Why is it necessary to begin the investigation with an assumption?

All science is based on assumption. Assume something, derive predictions, prove or disprove predictions. Assumption accepted or rejected.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Actually, Saturn is a lot like a spinning bucket, especially on the spinning part.

Well there you go, both are spinning, so obviously both are artificial. I got the whole thing figured out

Why not do as the rest of the "intelligent" life in the solar system does....post on a website....

Oh I thought they phoned in votes to American Idol, which would explain how that fat, white haired old goofball won, and not the hot POA, (McPhee?). He got all the Venusian and French votes.

Because, on Earth, there is an abundance of near-perfectly shaped objects, all of which are made by man. Since, to my knowledge, there are no humans orbiting Saturn's North Pole, whereas there are thousands upon thousands of known naturally occurring gas formations (what with it being a gas giant 'n' all), it's a fairly safe bet that it's something peculiar about Saturn's atmosphere that we don't know about yet.

Ok lets see if Ive got it straight. Since only humans can make geometric symbols, and there are no humans around Saturn, therefore, the geometric formation is a natural phenomenon. You need an emergency trepanning!

Seems to me that assuming "aliens" is like assuming "god" -- stifle's genuine scientific interest.

I know, thats why I dont assume aliens. All Ive been talking about is the importance of not making any assumptions, entertaining new possibilities.

The geometric shape is centered on Saturn's south pole, correct? In that case it seems to me that postulating some sort of spinning interacting with some other force is the obvious hypothesis.

Yo mah man, much respeck [/fistbump] But that aint no obvious hypothesis. Some sort of spinning stuff is interacting with some sort of force?

If it wasn't centered on a pole, I think everyone involved would be much more likely to consider non-natural causes ahead of natural ones

I think its still pretty weird even though its at the pole, but Im not exactly a geologist/physicist/exobiologist, either.

(after they were done wetting their pants in excitement, that is).

Theyde slide right out of their chairs and shatter their coccyx.

Let's for a moment assume it's not a natural phenomena. How did the aliens do it?

Unknown. Only way to figure out how it was dione is to entertain the possibility. You dont determine whether things are true or not, by ruling them out from the word go.

Why is there only sign funny clouds?

You mean, why dont they send a message some other way, like radio or something? Dont know. Wild guess? I think a life form that evolved in the atmosphere of a gas giant would have difficulty building a radio. Who knows how these creatures would percieve and interact with their environment, how their technology would develop? Or maybe the ability to manipulate the clouds is a natural ability of some kind Maybe the hexagon is their equivelant of a city

where are the aliens from?

My money would be on them being from Saturn. Living in Saturns atmosphere doesnt seem like it could be an acquired taste.

Why didn't we see them before?

Because in all of human history, we only started sending probes to other planets forty years ago.

The assumption that it's natural is a good one because the alternatives are absurdly complicated and would involve all sorts of crazy stuff.

If all scientists had that attitude, right now we wouldnt have complicated crazy stuff like vessels that we built travelling all over the solar system sending us back images of giant geometric patterns on other worlds.

Just because it's an unexplained mystery doesn't mean you should go off the deep end.

But it does mean that since its an unexplained mystery, its important not to make any assumptions.

A Hexagonal pattern like this isn't hard to make mathematically. A standing wave with a wavelength of 1/6 the circumference of the circle would produce something resmembling the structure, that's something that's quite possible to be brought by natural means.

That would be the view of a mathematician. If you scroll up a little you can see the opinion of an atmospheric expert about how likely it is.