Science 4000BC

[Dell19]

So which path are we going to chose? Someone could always start another thread with a poll of all the 6 different options.

 

[mordhiem]

Originally posted by Dell19
So which path are we going to chose? Someone could always start another thread with a poll of all the 6 different options.

A poll eh? Sounds like the Science Advisors job...

 

[starlifter]

If a poll is done, I suggest:

1. A-BW-CB-CoL-Mon
2. BW-A-CB-CoL-Mon
3. xxx-CB-A-CoL-Mon
4. A-CB-yyy-CoL-Mon
5. A-CoL-yyy-CB-Mon
6. CB-A-yyy-CoL-Mon


Where xxx choices are:

Bronze Working (or use path #2)
Ceremonial Burial (must use path #6)
Horseback Riding
Masonry
Pottery
Warrior Code


Where yyy choices are:

Bronze Working
Map Making
Masonry
Mysticism
Pottery
Warrior Code
Writing

Note: If someone wants BW as the extra tech, I'd say Option 3 is "best".

This encompasses all the options for 5-tech Monarchy.

The hut Pop may settle it, if we get a tech. Our choices would likely become #3 in that case.

 

[MajorGeneral2]

BW first, then streamline Monarchy. Then I personally would Prioritize: Philosophy, Invention (for Leo's), Demo, Railroads, Robotics. But, of course, it depends on what comes up. For now, I'll say:
BW-CB-CoL-Mon. Horseback Riding if none of those are available.

 

[duke o' york]

Instead of making a separate poll for this, I'll just use this thread to get people to suggest which course of action to take. We all seem to be agreed on taking Monarchy as the first tech, and although we may get a tech from the hut which could throw our plans into the water whence we came, starlifter's recommendation of getting there as soon as possible seems to make good sense to me. If you have a preference on how to get there then please post it here and we will let the President use his initiative based on the opinions in this thread. Based on the posts here already, I say that we should go for CB as the first option, rather than CoL, and BW as the junk tech for the possibility of the Colossus. We shan't need a temple too early though if we build warriors for exploration and settlers for colonisation.

 

[starlifter]

we may get a tech from the hut which could throw our plans into the water whence we came

Actually, since we will not have founded the 1st city at the pop of the visible hut, our 1st tech research will not yet be chosen. If the hut gives us a tech, it just means we use path#3:

3. xxx-CB-A-CoL-Mon

and start our research at CB, then A & CoL.... and we'll have Monarchy available at #5.

So in this case, a tech from this particular hut will actaully speed up our Monarchy ! But I still hope for a horseman, or even anarcher.

 

[heliogabalus]

> But I still hope for a horseman, or even anarcher.

Don't we already have anarchywrksbest? ;-)

Anyway: I'd go with option 3.

 

[Leowind]

Originally posted by heliogabalus
> But I still hope for a horseman, or even anarcher.

Don't we already have anarchywrksbest? ;-)

I"d like to see our "junk tech" be Bronze Working. It's nice to have Phalanxes early on, as well as the Colossus, of course. I would even gladly support option 3 and take BW first, then on to Monarchy.

 

[Ren]

In my games, I always try to go A-CB-BW-CoL-Mon.

That is, of course, if I'm playing on an easier level, in that case I would go for BW before CB

Get that wonder on the road!

 

[MajorGeneral2]

As I've said, BW should be first, IMHO. Phalanxes are very nice to have, and Colossus is one of the best wonders. Since we have a Horseman, Horseback Riding isn't a priority for now.

 

[germanos]

Originally posted by mordhiem
If I had to proritise the order we get the techs in then I would go:

Alphabet
Ceremonial Burial
Code of Laws
Monarchy
Bronze Working

The Colossus is just to valuable to let another Civ get, but, of course, Monarchy Monarchy Monarchy!

Hi guys, I'm back ! (sort of, I lost my connection to the net at home, so I have to resort to Internet cafe's)

I completely agree with Mordheim, and luckily I will be in position to decide .

I do not agree on the value of the colossos however, but that will be discussed in other threads I suppose. I find it very usefull to have the Colossus in foreign hands, and then get all my caravans over there! that makes great use of vthe extra trade, and ALL our cities may be able to draw th rewards.

Since both the duke and I were in strong favor of Monarchy first, and nobody challenged us in the elections, I firmly support Mordheims row of techs.

Yours truly, Germanos, Co-Science Advisor

 

[starlifter]

Since both the duke and I were in strong favor of Monarchy first, and nobody challenged us in the elections, I firmly support Mordheims row of techs.

Just be aware that it is not possible to research them in the order Mordheim listed .

I do not agree on the value of the colossos however, but that will be discussed in other threads I suppose. I find it very usefull to have the Colossus in foreign hands, and then get all my caravans over there! that makes great use of vthe extra trade, and ALL our cities may be able to draw th rewards.

That is some very interesting and creative thinking & strategy! In fact, if it were possible to direct the specific AI civ to build the Colossus in the proper place & on the right terrain, it would be of more practical use. Unfortunately, the AI can neither grow cities fast enough, nor can they add the correct improvements fast enough to make good use of the Colossus.

There is another huge downside to allowing the AI to build it... the demand of the colossus city will likely be met, and most subsequent caravans & freight will be non-demanded, which means you don't get diddly, relative to a demanded cargo.... and if every city is delivering diddly cargos, it will take a minimum of 3 times the number of C/F to get the same result.... and in the era of triremes & even Caravels & Galleons, that will (for practical purposes) increase the required sealift capacity by 200% to 300%, which will cripple shield production and prevent a successful Republic, and maybe even prohibit any early Democracy (the gov't, that is) consideration, at least until all of the required 40 to 70 caravels are upgraded to galleons (galleons=no unhappiness).

Naturally, I don't even need to review how loss of Colossus in the SSC would be a crippling blow, so without Colossus, a non-SSC strategy would be the best science route. We would definitely need Naval Superiority and Magellan's Expedition, and probably Lighthouse to balance this from our (the Human's) perspective.



There is one more much less obvious consequence to letting the AI get the Colossus, with the intent that all our cities trade with it. Assuming the AI builds it properly, grows the city, gets rid of non-trade squares, removes overlap of it's nearby cities, etc. etc., then we still have an issue: The location of Colossus is fixed.... e.g., it does not move. We want the Colossus to progressively move further and further from our cities as teh game progresses, to increase trade bonus value (which is heavily distance dependent). If the AI colossus is far away, it is worthless to us in early & maybe even mid game. If it is close, it is worthless to us in Late and very likely even mid game.

So.... how to get the Colossus to increase in distance from us as time goes by??? The answer was learned in the American West, a long time ago: If you can't bring the horse to the water, then bring the water to the horse. What does this mean? It means that if you can't move the colossus city, then you must move the cities the colossus trades with! If the AI has the Colossus, we cannot move the Colossus, and we cannot move out own cities.... hence we cannot take the horse to water, and even worse, we cannot bring the water to the horse.

Therefore, we need to build the Colossus... and then we select the AI cities with which to trade: in early game, our colossus trade partners will be relatively closeby... as time goes passes, we will squash those AI trading partner cities like insects (and have domestic routes alread working), and bring the water (trade) to the horse (our Colossus) by sending our rehomed colossus caravans (the water) to progressively more and more distant cities, with porgressively faster (and higher capacity) sealift!



So the Colossus is one of the few wonders that is actually critical to build in a city that can commit to using all, or almost all, workers in Ocean and other trade squares! And the Colossus city must grow, with higher priority status than almost anything in the Empire, except for things that actually affect survival. If done right, the Colossus can be the dominate wonder for much of the first 5,000 years or so.

 

[germanos]

The risk of the Colossus being build too far away or in a lousy city certainly does exist!

However, although the Colossus can be very powerfull as you described, in my own (SP)games I find usually very little time to build it, the HG being my first priority. (extra trade as well onder Monarchy (We Love the King), and simularly in Republic due to enormous growth under Love-conditions. The loss of Science to Lux is easily compensated in both cases). I have never sufficiently playtested the benefits of one over the other, but my SP games usually go quite well by the described strat

On Topic: what order of Tech-research should we follow to reach Monarchy ASAP ?

 

[ainwood]

For my benefit, can someone discuss the relative merits of running to monarchy vs running to republic?

 

[duke o' york]

You can get to Monarchy a heck of a lot sooner than you can get to Republic basically. After that, change to Republic if you want but the simple rule is to get out of Despotism as soon as you possibly can and Monarchy is the best way.

 

[ainwood]

But republic is only on the "4th" level, whilst monarchy is on the third. The only difference is that you need literacy for republic.

As I see it, you can research literacy instead of monarchy, and get to work building libraries in the SSC whilst you get the republic.

I presume that it is actually much slower due to having to take other techs along the way, but just thought it might be worth considering as an alternative. It really boils down to how long you are going to stay in monarchy.

 

[duke o' york]

Since we will be rocketing along to our first tech in two turns with 5 arrows per turn I have decided to bring this thread back.
I assume that everyone will be wanting to go for Alphabet first, as this seems to be the most popular choice from what has been posted here so far. If you think otherwise then say now or be forced to sit and watch the Fanaticans develop into a highbrow cultural elite rather than the meanest fighting force on the planet. Although later on, that too.
So to our President preparing to play the next turn when we are given the option of a first tech: Alphabet! Then Ceremonial Burial, Bronze Working, Code of Laws and Monarchy!

 

[ainwood]

How long will the second tech take (estimated?) Just want to compare this to the SSC build queue (as per the other thread)

 

[Zwelgje]

I'd like to know how long it will take before we will have bronze working so that we can begin on constructing colossus. I think it will be a waste if the SSC is building units while the shields would be very well used on the colossus. If we begin on barracks and switch will that take away shields from the production line? If not I'm all in favour to start barracks when bronze working is being researched and then with a few turns left on barracks to switch to colossus.

 

[duke o' york]

Changing the type of build project will mean that you lose half the shields accrued on all levels higher than Chieftain. The types are: units, city improvements and wonders (including SS parts). The later you leave a switch then, the more shields you will lose. If we produce units then we can either use them to garrison new cities and rehome them or disband them to add half the number of shields they required to the Colossus. I don't think that this second idea is a good one but it would be possible and indeed necessary in extreme circumstances.