Science 4000BC

[Leowind]

I would be in favor of moving Bronze Working as far forward in the tech queue as possible, even as our first choice if that still gets us to Monarchy in 5 techs. (We have to choose a tech not on the path to Monarchy anyway). Not only will this give us the option of starting on colossus when we want, not when we finally get the tech, but we can also start building Phalanxes rather than warriors. I know not an issue right now, but I'd rather have cities garrisoned with phalanxes already in place when barbs and enemies start appearing than have to start converting our warriors into phalanxes, which would pull resources from whatever endeavors me might be engaged in at that time.

 

[starlifter]

Since we will be rocketing along to our first tech in two turns with 5 arrows per turn I have decided to bring this thread back.

Right, but 2 will be for taxes & 3 for science (3,3,3,1-ADVANCE-2,3,3,3,3...). It will be the 4th turn for tech #1.

If we do BW, then we can start Colossus after the Warrior is done. If not BW, we must do CB & then build temple. We can start Barracks, and switch to temple. It all depends on our 1st research. Hopefully, we won't get techs from huts after we start research at least till Monarchy).

Early warriors are not for defense, but for exploring and happiness control. When growth requires it, NONE units have to return and take care of the red dudes (takes timing to know just when ).

 

[starlifter]

I just saw Leowind's post, which is really a great idea. The option of Phalanxes, and of course the Wonder start. The 1st tech completion will coincide with the 1st warrior completion.

 

[mordhiem]

Yes, i have always been an advocate of researching BW as soon as possible. The sooner we can get the colosuss the better. Phlanxes are a nice bonus too.

 

[duke o' york]

Originally posted by starlifter
Right, but 2 will be for taxes & 3 for science (3,3,3,1-ADVANCE-2,3,3,3,3...). It will be the 4th turn for tech #1.

Duh! I didn't even realise the error of my ways when I looked at the two city screens. Still, the more money we have, the more barb bribery we can get up to!

As to Leo's suggestion, I am quite happy to go with BW as first tech. Despite what starlifter said about warriors, I still believe that we'll need one for peace-keeping in the SSC and then we can get a move on with the Colossus. It's best to have it for as long as possible.

Edited out some load of tripe that I typed earlier. I just hope that ron hasn't quoted it!

 

[starlifter]

by Duke o York:

Despite what starlifter said about warriors, I still believe that we'll need one for peace-keeping in the SSC

??? I agree with you on that... in my prior post, I said warriors were good for " exploring and happiness control" as contrasted for defense. A caravan defends as well as a warrior, BTW. Naturally, the SSC needs a Warrior & should build one before strting a wonder . In 11 turns, the SSC will need a mil unit to keep order, and the warrior is the only option (and fastest option... other cities can provide better defenders later). So yup, I agree... build a warrior, and it will pop out on the turn we get BW.

 

[GenShwartzCough]

Even if BW bumps getting to Monarchy to 6 techs, I still like the idea of going for it first. Get's that Collosus started ASAP.

 

[mordhiem]

A poll to assertain what tech the people wish to research first would be most beneficial.

 

[duke o' york]

It would just be like the poll we've got that has 16 votes to build a warrior and none for any of the other options. I mentioned somewhere before in this thread that the general consensus seems to be for monarchy, and you can check starlifter's earlier post for the different choices to get there as soon as possible. I invited those who didn't want to beeline to monarchy to make themselves known but so far there has been no dissenters whatsoever. Rightfully so, I believe.
Since this thread is already quite large I don't see the need for another poll. It would just be an opportunity for people to make needless posts. We will have another science thread after the discovery of monarchy and that will doubtless contain a poll.
We tend to poll for research targets, rather than a choice of specific techs. After monarchy, instead of giving the poll options for each next possible tech, it is better to ask the populace where we should be heading: Feudalism, Philosophy, Seafaring, Literacy, Trade, etc.

 

[starlifter]

by Duke o York:

I invited those who didn't want to beeline to monarchy to make themselves known but so far there has been no dissenters whatsoever. Rightfully so, I believe.

I agree with Duke... there is a thread on it in great detail, and the path to Monarchy is pretty much set, barring a tech from a hut along the way (which would throw a big wrench into Monarchy, and delay Monarchy by hundreds of years).

The science advisors (and Prez/VP) know how to get there (to Monarchy), but if anyone would like an alternative, like Early Republic for instance, then they should of course post about their ideas . The rate of techs will slow down after Monarchy, and the importance of specific benefits of individual techs, and their timing, will grow.

 

[ainwood]

Originally posted by ainwood
But republic is only on the "4th" level, whilst monarchy is on the third. The only difference is that you need literacy for republic.

As I see it, you can research literacy instead of monarchy, and get to work building libraries in the SSC whilst you get the republic.

I presume that it is actually much slower due to having to take other techs along the way, but just thought it might be worth considering as an alternative. It really boils down to how long you are going to stay in monarchy.

*BUMP*

Can someone provide some info on this? Every thread seems to suggest that monarchy is a fait-accompli, but I'd still like a comparison with heading to republic instead.

(I guess I'm Duke's dissenter, but I can be easily persuaded )

 

[GaryNemo]

Monarchy yields more production than Republic, so it is a better focus. On the other hand, we have 3 None units, but...

I marvel at the seeming indecision of this community, but remind myself, that is the strength of Democracy. "The Road to Serfdom" by Hayek has an entire chapter on this subject.

 

[duke o' york]

I get the feeling that some people don't want to potentially embarrass themselves by weighing in with what they really think, but instead are waiting to see what the more experienced players have to say before saying anything of their own. This is a ridiculous idea of course - I'm sure that if we were to be given this randomly by the AI then we'd all be well into the endgame by now with tonnes of techs and the remnants of weeping AI civs. The Demo game gives everyone a chance to have a say though and so we can't play a huge pile of turns at once as the will of the people is vital to the conduct of the game.
I'm sure that if I was playing this game by myself then I'd be in all kinds of trouble by now, but since the format of this game gives us the chance to weigh up the pros and cons of every decision and prepare ourselves properly then we shouldn't make any of the silly irreversible blunders you might make in your own games. The speed of the game seems to be so impressive that I have to keep reminding myself that we still haven't reached turn 16 and the arrival of barbs yet! Once we have explored the continent though (for which the river should allow us much better speed), then the turns will roll over much quicker and we will start to move through the tech tree.
And just remember: From little acorns, irritating clichés grow!

 

[starlifter]

This game could be played in almost any style, successfully, given the start we have had (it is a very good start). I don't know how many people have actually played early republic (skipping monarchy and going straight to republic), but it is very different in some ways.

Early Republics will work, but you need happiness control and gold. Personally, I rarely use Early Republic (in place of Monarchy, that is), because I get more gold from the AI by extortion and war than by early game trade arrows that cannot be multiplied (e.g., no Marketplace yet, and no Michelangelo's Chapel for Deity unrest, and no Hanging Gardens). Settlers also eat 2 food, yet early on have not had time to irrigate. Food is key to early republics... with food, you can use Elvii to force a city to grow to size 7 thru WLT_ days.

 

[MonkE]

Since settlers eat extra grain and units generally "eat" extra shields, it seems too early to consider Republic from an economic wiewpoint. At Deity, happiness is stickier but not as much a problem if supported units stay at home. My playing style is to focus on growth, building up the number and size of cities and increasing trade (unless there is a weak civ nearby to grab space from :soldier: ). Based on some very good articles (see Alan Nicoll's in the War Academy) and my own experience, I believe Monarchy is the best government for early development at high game levels. Grow fast and stay #1 in science!

 

[starlifter]

There is a tech that means "Let the consideration for Early Republic begin!". That tech is Seafaring. The reason is Harbors. If a city has it's marketplace and temple, plus the harbor, it is pretty much good to size 7, and usually 8. Then drop Luxuries to 20%, and let the gold and caravans flow.


Unless the game conditions really start to shout "Early Republic, Early Republic!!", I tend to favor and stick with fast Monarchy. I almost never switch to Republic until fairly late, like about 1 AD or so.

BTW, the game (at this moment) is almost ideal for early republic, but experience says that can and usually does change (become less favorable) as the game progresses. Hence, I almost never go for Republic before Monarchy. As I appraoch 1 AD and I'm not in Republic (at Deity), I ask myself what I'm doing wrong, and sometimes drastically hack and slash tactics to get there, grow, and start real trade .

 

[ainwood]

Thanks for the feedback!

What I was actually looking at was the relative commerce and production bonuses (or should that actually be 'boni' ) of republic v monarchy, and comparing this to the extra turns to be spent in despotism whilst researching to republic (especially if you have to take another side-track tech in between, say after COL). I am an emperor player, and it was usually possible to manage happiness reasonably well going to republic. I probably never took too much notice of the relative other effects, especially in terms of unit support etc. My main "issue" used to be with units out of their home town creating unhappiness, especially galleys. Anyhow - I used to use this frequently when we were alone on an island, and a mobile force wasn't needed on border patrol etc.

I also used to tend to go for the "peaceful-builder" approach, so income from war / extortion was not really applicable!

The question then becomes "at what point do you change from monarchy?" Do you wait and go straight to fundamentalism / democracy? Or do you grow the infrastructure (temples / markets / happiness wonders) and then go to republic?

 

[Leowind]

The issue for me is simply getting out of despotism as soon as possible, and Monarchy offers the fastest route to do that. Once there I seem to stay there for quite some time, but then I'm still learning at Deity. I could be all for a quick route to Republic once we get to Monarchy.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

As far as updating the Current Science thread:

If the Advisors could upload the needed screen shot(s) to the server and then just post the link to it in the Needed Stuff Thread (or PM me) I can then update the main thread with the new link.