Scientific Method vs Great Library

[Culture Bomb]

One dilemma I often have in games is that if I have the Great Library I never know whether to delay getting Scientific Method to preserve the free scientists, (and also any research generated by monasteries.)

I suppose there are 3 options here:

1. Delay Scientific Method as long as possible to get the maximum benefit from the free scientists ( eg GPP )

2. Get Scientific Method in the normal course of events, by trading or teching whenever I feel like I need it to progress to one of the techs that require it.

3. Beeline Scientific Method as quickly as possible with the aim of either getting to Physics first for the free Great Scientist, or Communism for the Great Spy and chance of building the Kremlin. In this case, the Great Library has done its job if it helped you get to Scientific Method quicker, and it will also probably be possible to trade SM around the other civs for other useful techs. However, this is probably only possible if you arrive at this stage of the game with a tech lead or at least parity.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

By the time I hit SciMeth, the 2 scientists aren't all that important anymore. I've generally earned quite a few Great People from them and my base science from other sources is significant enough where, yeah, I'll see a change in the /turn, but not significant enough to damage my tech rate too badly.

Honestly, the real loss for me is the monasteries. Back in the day when I would get 2-4(high end) different religions in my heavy cities, they would receive up to 40% boost from monasteries. Losing that 40% boost sucks BIG TIME. It's really bad if you running a specialist-heavy economy where the Parthenon is boosting your GP output and your GrLibrary scientists are in a city with 3-4 monasteries. That REALLY hurts bad.

To your original question, it really depends on the situation in the game. Am I a tech powerhouse? If so, I'll probably put off getting SciMeth for a little bit. However, remember that Biology has SciMeth as a prerequisite and Biology can enable you to have quite a few MORE scientists in any number of specialist heavy cities (if you went that route).

So going for biology after sci-meth can not only make up for the loss of the 2 free scientists, but actually enable many more specialists from the extra from farms.

 

[Dr.Null]

Honestly, the real loss for me is the monasteries. Back in the day when I would get 2-4(high end) different religions in my heavy cities, they would receive up to 40% boost from monasteries. Losing that 40% boost sucks BIG TIME. It's really bad if you running a specialist-heavy economy where the Parthenon is boosting your GP output and your GrLibrary scientists are in a city with 3-4 monasteries. That REALLY hurts bad.

Yeah. I kinda wish Sci Meth had some kind of compensation, like +10% beakers in all cities, or scientist specialists now also get you +1 ... something.

So going for biology after sci-meth can not only make up for the loss of the 2 free scientists, but actually enable many more specialists from the extra from farms.

Yep yep. And from there it's one tech to Medicine, which allows even more specialists via Sushi.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^NICE! Good advice here.

I almost completely forgot about Sid's Sushi.

Yeah. I kinda wish Sci Meth had some kind of compensation, like +10% beakers in all cities, or scientist specialists now also get you +1 ... something.

I'm pretty sure it's a balance issue. Right after SciMeth, you either can grab Physics for a free GS (same output as 2 non-REP scientists WITH a bonus), Communism for a free GSpy (same output as 1 non-Rep scientist alongside the major bonus of 12 EP), or Biology for a boost to all farms allowing you to grab an unknowable number of extra specialists (which when combined with REP, is VERY powerful for the SE).

 

[Culture Bomb]

By the time I hit SciMeth, the 2 scientists aren't all that important anymore.

Yes... this is what I was missing. I was caught up in thinking that the Library was "Great" when I first built it, but was not taking into account that its significance greatly diminishes as time goes on and cities get larger and able to run more specialists.

I hadn't forgotten about biology; if I think I have a chance to get Physics or Communism first, I'll probably go for those but if not I'm likely to go straight for Biology after SciMeth.

What I had forgotten about when I made the post was that SciMeth also reveals Oil, which can also be very important to do as early as possible because it can have a big influence on future strategy.

@ Dr.Null - interesting point about Medicine and Sushi, which brings me to another dilemma that frequently causes me some head-scratching: Corporations vs State Property. This has probably been discussed a lot somewhere else, but if a search doesn't answer my questions, maybe I'll start a new topic for it.

 

[Schmieds]

Yeah. I kinda wish Sci Meth had some kind of compensation, like +10% beakers in all cities, or scientist specialists now also get you +1 ... something.

Yep yep. And from there it's one tech to Medicine, which allows even more specialists via Sushi.

Sushi is amazing, I barely have to worry about food after I have it established.

 

[Dr.Null]

interesting point about Medicine and Sushi, which brings me to another dilemma that frequently causes me some head-scratching: Corporations vs State Property. This has probably been discussed a lot somewhere else, but if a search doesn't answer my questions, maybe I'll start a new topic for it.

SP is brilliant if you don't have sushi yet.

Sushi is amazing, I barely have to worry about food after I have it established.

Even on regular Fractal maps (i.e. not islands or snaky or whatever), it seems like Sushi is the best food augmentation out there. The extra culture is just gravy...

... delicious gravy which keeps my captured cities from being in constant revolt...

 

[mariogreymist]

SP is brilliant if you don't have sushi yet.

Even on regular Fractal maps (i.e. not islands or snaky or whatever), it seems like Sushi is the best food augmentation out there. The extra culture is just gravy...

... delicious gravy which keeps my captured cities from being in constant revolt...

I have seen a few maps which caused me to go for Cereal Mills over Sushi though. If you end up with a big potato continent (which sometimes happens on fractal) then you are likely to have a lot more grain than fish, and CM gets the nod, even though it generates no culture. And of course, if you get more food from CM, you can also just run some artists with it...and what to do with the extra food can be changed from one city to the next. So unless I am going for culture, and it's a close thing, I aways go for the food corp that generates more food.

 

[Dr.Null]

I have seen a few maps which caused me to go for Cereal Mills over Sushi though. If you end up with a big potato continent (which sometimes happens on fractal) then you are likely to have a lot more grain than fish, and CM gets the nod, even though it generates no culture. And of course, if you get more food from CM, you can also just run some artists with it...and what to do with the extra food can be changed from one city to the next. So unless I am going for culture, and it's a close thing, I aways go for the food corp that generates more food.

Huh, I never seem to get those "potato" maps.

Also, and this might be because I'm teching wrong or something, it seems like there's a looooooong gap between Medicine and Refrigeration. The opportunity cost of waiting for Refrigeration feels quite high, especially since Drafting cost probably just doubled.

I'm not the most experienced player, though, so my experiences may be atypical...

 

[Culture Bomb]

I generally find that the main problem with corporations is getting the right Great Person at the right time; there have been occasions when I have really wanted to found Aluminum Co, but even though my GP cities had a much greater chance to generate a Great Scientist than any other, I kept getting Great Spies instead, etc.

The other risk of corps is that the AIs seem to really love Environmentalism, and if I'm not guaranteed to get control of the UN, there's always a high chance they will vote for Global Civic - Environmentalism, which can really wreck a strategy based on corporations.

Edit: a vote of Global Environmentalism would also bump you out of State Property obviously, but it doesn't seem to mess you up as much as if you are relying heavily on corporations.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I generally find that the main problem with corporations is getting the right Great Person at the right time; there have been occasions when I have really wanted to found Aluminum Co, but even though my GP cities had a much greater chance to generate a Great Scientist than any other, I kept getting Great Spies instead, etc.

The other risk of corps is that the AIs seem to really love Environmentalism, and if I'm not guaranteed to get control of the UN, there's always a high chance they will vote for Global Civic - Environmentalism, which can really wreck a strategy based on corporations.

Edit: a vote of Global Environmentalism would also bump you out of State Property obviously, but it doesn't seem to mess you up as much as if you are relying heavily on corporations.

You can generally get a number of Great Merchants pretty easily during mid-game with caste system and perhaps a run with pacifism. Save one Great Merchant for Sid's Sushi. All you have to do is get Medicine first, then .

Honestly, in my 4-5 year tenure with civ4, I have only been forced into environmentalism via UN twice. It's not that big of a concern for me. Plus, you can always refuse say "NEVER!" and take the hit until you can burn the UN (lol) or vote the a-hole out. Could be a problem, but a rare one (at least in my games).

Generally speaking, Corporations/Free Market are the obvious choice for smaller empires (with or without vassals) since the distance maintenance costs are much lower than large/multi-landmass empires where State Prop is the obvious winner. This is especially exaggerated on Huge maps where a large empire can have dozens of cities on multiple landmasses VERY far from the capital and even the Forbidden Palace.

That being said, if you are able to grab Versailles in one of your furthest cities during the mid game and Forbidden palace in another far away location, Corporations/free market are still VERY viable especially with Wall Street in the corp HQ city.

If you have a well spread religious shrine in a city that also has your corporate HQ and Wall Street, you can utilize corporations/free market in a huge map domination run even with vassals turned off. It's a matter of strategically placing Forbidden Palace and having a distant Versailles. Running lots of merchants in your Wall Street city and building gold in some of your hybrid cities will help keep your science slider up at or near 100% (if running commerce heavy economy of course).

 

[kochman]

I generally find that the main problem with corporations is getting the right Great Person at the right time;

I generally save the required GPs as needed for the corps I want, within several dozen turns at least.
Example, GAs are not something I come across frequently, based on how I set up my GP farms/wonders. If I pop one by accident, basically, I save him for Mass Media, and CJ (the best of the corps if applied in a shrine/wall street city, preferably with either your capital or the forbidden palace/versaille). Chances of me getting another one are low, and will probably happen well after I discover Mass Media, lowering the effectiveness of CJ.
Same with GMs... I don't get many.

I tend to get GSs and a few GEs and GPs. With the GSs I actually prefer to build academies and settle, rather than found those corps, unless I just need the extra science badly to keep up.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I'm not sure how you guys have problems popping Great Merchants. You can run endless merchants with Caste System. So if it looks like a corporations game, why not stop running scientists and run merchants to pop a GM? By the time your making a corporations gambit, you can be in representation, so you're not entirely losing the from the scientist specialists.

As to CJ being the "best corporation", I can't say I agree in any way. That's like the last corporation I would ever go for. Granted, if you pop a Great Artist and are planning on running corps, why not put it in the WS city. Sid's Sushi doesn't compete, so why not.

I find Sid's Sushi to be the most powerful corporation. The sheer amount of food it provides allows versatility that is unrecognized in just about any other corporation.

 

[Culture Bomb]

This is all very useful advice.

Although I am not a very good player, like to play on a level that is hard enough that I am unlikely to win (at the moment this is Monarch.) Therefore it is rare for me to have many wonders or any tech advantage, and also quite likely that I will be at the mercy of the AIs when it comes to UN/AP resolutions.

In these kinds of games, it is probably more likely that I will be able to found a corporation than build a wonder, because the AI does not seem to know to save GPs and then beeline the appropriate tech.

I may well focus on getting Sushi in my next game. Unfortunately, in my current game in a Pangaea type map, there is very little seafood (this must be one of the 'potato' maps.) I am still some way away from getting to Industrialism and discovering whether I have Aluminum. If I don't I'll probably aim at getting AlCo and Cereal Mills, but if I do it will probably be better to stick with State Property and get the extra food from the workshops and water wheels. Unfortunately, Mining Inc, (another corp that I think is useful) was founded a few turns before I got the necessary tech.

 

[kochman]

As to CJ being the "best corporation", I can't say I agree in any way. That's like the last corporation I would ever go for.

Your loss.
Here is why CJ is the greatest:
In HQ = , plus for every city that you spread it to.
In your cities = + 1-2 in each city you spread it to.

With other corps, you get something (whether it be , , science), but you lose gold in that city (especially if w/o courthouse). That means, you basically break even, but you get some food, or whatever. Not bad, but...

CJ not only breaks even, plus gives you , you actually profit plus get culture for every city its in. In every city I am in, running on 100% science, I average 10-15 total /turn when the city in question plus the HQ profits are added together. Start spreading that internationally too... AI gets a bonus in each city sure, and 1-2 gold/city, but in your super financial HQ, you are getting abotu 10/turn from each AI city with it...
Now, lower your science slider a little and the money gets sickening quickly! You can rush buy out of your mind, while still have a great science rate... Other corps cannot back the rush buy nearly as effectively, because they just aren't as profitable. When you are raking in thousands of /turn for your empire, that extra food, or science... what have you... suddenly becomes a lot less significant because you are buying several improvements/units per turn making your empire completely unstoppable. I really don't think running a couple of specialists because you have some extra food can compete with that. Do the math... you will see that I am correct.

Money money money... Money!

That being said, this works best if you HQ CJ in a city with a government center (palace of some sort), holy shrine (or two if you are lucky), and wall street. You can even add Sid's Sushi and Creative Construction HQs in the same financial super city to get further economic output... If these things don't come together (which you can make them come together if you try), then CJ loses power.

Course... I could be wrong

 

[Dr.Null]

Yeah, CJ is pure profit. It can support your whole civilization if you've got the right set up (like a bunch of core cities with +100% buildings, and a bunch of gold, silver & gems resources).

It's got great synergy with CC and SS, if you like screwing AIs with your massive cultural borders, or if you go for a culture win.

 

[kochman]

Yeah, CJ is pure profit. It can support your whole civilization if you've got the right set up (like a bunch of core cities with +100% buildings, and a bunch of gold, silver & gems resources).

It's got great synergy with CC and SS, if you like screwing AIs with your massive cultural borders, or if you go for a culture win.

Exactly. Definitely best applied with CC and SS. I think Mining Inc actually competes with CJ, so stay away from it.

 

[Dr.Null]

Exactly. Definitely best applied with CC and SS. I think Mining Inc actually competes with CJ, so stay away from it.

Yeah, but Mining can be awesome for production (especially if you have a lot of Coal / Silver / Gold and not much Stone / Marble / Aluminum).

It's a trade-off. If you have a lot of Silver & Gold, you can use it to support your economy with CJ, or you can feed it to your military-industrial complex via Mining.

 

[kochman]

Yeah, but Mining can be awesome for production (especially if you have a lot of Coal / Silver / Gold and not much Stone / Marble / Aluminum).

It's a trade-off. If you have a lot of Silver & Gold, you can use it to support your economy with CJ, or you can feed it to your military-industrial complex via Mining.

No amount of mining company can equal the power of the rush buy when is flowing into your coffers... rush buying units...
CJ is a production corporation as well.

Thank goodness there is no inflation in Civ4!

 

[TheWilltoAct]

kochman the efficiency of the corp you choose is entirely dependant upon your land and city set-up. As Dr.Null hints at, many different metal resources are channeled through Mining Inc, at a 1:1 conversion of resources to .
A modest empire could experience a significant boost in production before multipliers, and an emerging industrial or military powerhouse could see those hammers doubled.