Scions Balance?

[Tarquelne]

There have been some comments in the main balance thread on Scions balance - from vastly overpowered to the opposite. I'd like to work on the balance some more...

Please share your opinions/ideas, along with:

When the balance gets thrown off - early, with Reborn, etc.
What settings you use (difficulty, small maps, crowded, Blessings of A., etc.)

How about tech strategies - have you found a tech path that seems far better than others?


I tend to play standard or large maps, often relatively crowded. (Erebus maps often allow a civ or two a lot of room, however.) Flavor start. Immortal. Usually Erebus or Continents and Islands.

All in all I'd like to see them nerfed, and think the best place to do that is via less Awakened/Reborn. (It's one area where I think less is more: Making population harder to get increases the civ's uniqueness where nerfing or removing UUs/UBs would decrease it.)

I've never liked the very early game *1.5 Awakened spawning multiplier. (It lasts until your population reaches 5.) Ditching it is what I'd like to try first - I think it makes it too easy to build "luxuries" in the capital - anything other than Awakened.

After that, maybe remove the spawning modifier for the capital's population.

Finally, I suspect both Awakened and Reborn are too cheap to build - especially Reborn - and harvesting Reborn from razed cities too profitable once you have the techs that boost it.

 

[aurum]

I have been trying out the Scions a bit this week on Monarch, lakes, not crowded and I am not sure they are all that far off in power.

Early on the capital is a production powerhouse compared to another capital...but it has to be. At least for me early on you are only going to have your capital plus some 1 or 2 pop cities that don't contribute all that much.

From there the Scions have to tech rush to get reborn from razing or building or else they are going to fall behind real quick against those civs with lots of 10+ pop cities. Played to their strengths they can demolish the AI, but I don't think any easier than playing another civ to its strengths.

If they end up modded to have less population then they will need some kind of boost to research. Right now Scions can be decent at production, but for me at least I can't tech them anywhere near the pace I get with other civs.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

At the moment Scions are roughly keeping pace with me. I play huge maps on Diety, orc swarms active.


They are one of the few civs that seems to consistently do well under the AI. Nerfing them would be a huge mistake in my opinion. The game being a little easier when playing a particular civ is much less of a concern for me than the multiple civs that the AI can't play worth a damn.


Short version: Not broke. Don't fix.

 

[JimMorrison]

Also, and this may be easy to lose sight of, once you are experienced with them - they are incredibly hard to get a handle on, as a starting player. I don't just mean new to FF, but new to the Scions. I tried them a few times, and couldn't get -any- satisfaction until I had pored over the information posted on these forums. And it's a LOT of info that must be digested, just to even have a fighting chance. And even still, they're quirky. They may be powerful, but you have to play them just so in order to get any real performance out of them at all.

My original point though, was just that any nerf, especially to their early game, will make them all but impossible to figure out for the first time.

I would think if anything - make it more expensive to produce more pop yourself. Let the auto spawn give you a good baseline, but slow down the pop explosion that you get once you manage to survive and tech up. But since in several tries I haven't managed to make a good go of it with them, I would be against any real nerfing.

 

[Iceciro]

As someone coming from Fall Flat's point of view?

Don't nerf the Scions. Buff everyone else. The level of power for the Scions, when running at full tilt, should be the level of power any other civ can manage playing to their strengths.

The Scions are no stronger than the Lanun on coast/archipelago maps, the Cabalim near a fertile valley, Malakim+ malakim in desert rivered areas, etc etc etc.

The Scions techtree is also all over the freakin' place.

 

[kenken244]

I think that nerfing just the spawning would be a bad idea. It is already easier to use other methods of gaining reborn (like units that spawn them) than use spawn-based increases. I would make the other methods of gaining reborn somewhat less yeilding, and change the spawning formula so that it has many more things effecting it, but in lesser amounts. That way, you can make the spawning be on average less, while still keeping uniqueness and making increasing spawn chance more important.

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, I agree with Iceciro. The only things I'd really change would be the amount of reborn you get from razing, to limit the feedback effect that gives, and MAYBE getting rid of the initial spawn boost.

 

[Mylon]

Are Scions allowed to capture cities? When I played them in Orbis, I found this rather odd. I captured a gigantic Malakim city and I instantly had a city that matched my capital in size, thanks to conquest.

 

[Valkrionn]

They are, but there is a massive drop in population. I'm not sure if that was changed in Orbis or not.

 

[MrPopov]

I think the "free creative" trait Risen Emperor gets is a bit OP personally. I mean Scions have a lot of culture buildings, so I don't think this is really needed.

 

[WarKirby]

I think the "free creative" trait Risen Emperor gets is a bit OP personally. I mean Scions have a lot of culture buildings, so I don't think this is really needed.

I think the idea, is that scion cities are FAR more valuable. They can't just crank out settlers.

Therefore, it would be especially crippling if loki could come along and scoop up their second city just after it's planted. I suspect it's to counter that.

 

[MrPopov]

then declare war like everyone else has to.

 

[Iceciro]

It's not quite as good as Creative as the Temple of the Gift you put up replaces the Claim.
And remember, our Emperor friend can't get any religious culture.

 

[Tarquelne]

Also, and this may be easy to lose sight of, once you are experienced with them - they are incredibly hard to get a handle on, as a starting player.

I think that's a good point. It's hard to tell but it seems likely for at least some people they go from "underpowered" when they start to something significantly better.

My original point though, was just that any nerf, especially to their early game, will make them all but impossible to figure out for the first time.

So I have to agree there, too. Or at least I'll try it last rather than first.

It's not quite as good as Creative as the Temple of the Gift you put up replaces the Claim.
And remember, our Emperor friend can't get any religious culture.

Plus:
The extra culture applies only to cities you found - but not the capital - and is lost if the city is taken.

It's quite good but it's really not "free creative", and culture is supposed to be one of the Scion strong points.

ATM decreasing the pop rewards from capturing/razing cities is looking the most attractive to me.

 

[Iceciro]

Or removing the ability for Scion preist units to cap Reborn so you can only build or smash your way to Reborn.

 

[Mylon]

One thing I found fairly powerful about Scions is the Temple of the Gift. Plains with a Workshop + haunted (from temple) + workshop enhancing tech (guilds?) yields some awesome production. Without a worry for food, there's really no downside.

I know in Orbis there's a strange quirk where workshops can be built pre-haunted, but not post-haunted. Does this issue persist in FF?

 

[kenken244]

Orbis scions are very different than FF scions. Don't provide feedback based on Orbis. The temple of the gift does not have anything to do with haunted lands in FF.

 

[Mylon]

Oh, well I guess I need to give them another try in FF to see how they play.

 

[MrPopov]

I generally don't like the haunted lands mechanic. There is too much micromanaging of the units that generate it then managing all the creepers, which I mostly fortify and forget, and the extra yields boost an already powerful civ.

I don't like the suggestion of removing the reborn creation from scion priest line. I really like that idea and think the reborn from city capture/razing should be reduced/removed.

 

[Valkrionn]

I generally don't like the haunted lands mechanic. There is too much micromanaging of the units that generate it then managing all the creepers, which I mostly fortify and forget, and the extra yields boost an already powerful civ.

I don't like the suggestion of removing the reborn creation from scion priest line. I really like that idea and think the reborn from city capture/razing should be reduced/removed.

Personally, I'd like to see Haunted Lands spread outwards automatically, starting from a Haunted Lands 'seed' and stopping at your borders. So basically, once you create your first Haunted Lands, it will spread radially outwards. Would remove alot of the micro from it, and you could set the spread speed low enough that it would still be beneficial to spread it yourself.

Neither do I. The capture of reborn is honestly the main selling point for the priests... I wouldn't remove the ability to gain reborn from razing cities but I would reduce it.