Scions documentation

[Thunder_Gr]

Ah, must have been changed since it was first put in... Never bothered trying after the first time.

Well, its better than nothing...Btw, I PMed you about the MAF, did you see it?

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Just checked and saw that Scions get the unhappiness penalty for wanting republic? The Scions of Patria want a republic???
I think republic should give an unhappiness modifier to this civ! Not the desire for it!!

 

[Methuselah]

Just checked and saw that Scions get the unhappiness penalty for wanting republic? The Scions of Patria want a republic???

Thematic sense - little
Game fairness - lots.

Every other civ (as far as I'm aware) gets that penalty, including ones like the Illians.

 

[Zurai]

All that is required is for the 4 Councilors to be in the same, non-capital, city. That would be Themoc, Pelemoc, Melante, and Alcinus. Once they're assembled, select Melante as she is the only one able to cast the spell.

This has never worked for me. The button is always greyed out. Lemme see if I can dig up a save.

 

[TimSLS]

I might be misunderstanding the debate, but I actually think aristocracy was very viable against godking currently, and the proposed change will hurt it to the point of being useless.

By spreading alot of cities to build the awakening buildings, and positioning them to get luxury artifacts and patrian artifacts, aristocracy allowed me to get above 30% awakening chance (turn 200, huge map, emperor difficulty). I continued to choose it over god king because if I switched I would lose 10% of that. The god king plus to hammers in capitols wasn't too significant because my capitol wasn't that much better than the other cities (I figure the small awakening plus for a larger capitol is outweighed by more recourses and the buildings from a new city). Thus aristocracy is the better choice for a more spread out empire focused on awakening, while godking is better if you emphasize the capitol or intend to gain population by warring or reborn (and have access to the units for warring).

If aristocracy is changed to a straight +4%, rather than a multiple, it will have its usefullness restricted alot to the early game. I think this is less interesting - reduces the choice of choosing a playstyle and government that goes with it (noted above)...some kind of multiple effect, rather than a plus, is needed to preserve this.

 

[Tarquelne]

/snip/

Lets try the cake thing: +4 and *1.25.

 

[TimSLS]

That seems like a great idea - will preserve some form of usefulness in either case.

 

[TimSLS]

Another balancing type question - I wonder if the legate and later doomsayer don't excessivly increase the usefulness of barbarians. If I get a couple of barb cities on my border, I can count on the suicide orc and goblin incursions to yield a steady stream of reborns - as significant a source as polemic. Though I'm not convinced this is a problem, and I'm not sure it would be very fitting to block barbs from becoming reborn. What experiences do other people have with this?

 

[Valkrionn]

That would work. Would make it useful in the beginning, and if you still need spawns it can be useful later on also.

 

[Valkrionn]

Another balancing type question - I wonder if the legate and later doomsayer don't excessivly increase the usefulness of barbarians. If I get a couple of barb cities on my border, I can count on the suicide orc and goblin incursions to yield a steady stream of reborns - as significant a source as polemic. Though I'm not convinced this is a problem, and I'm not sure it would be very fitting to block barbs from becoming reborn. What experiences do other people have with this?

I don't really have a problem with them recruiting barbarians as Reborn, as I'm fairly certain the Scions would view EVERYONE as a barbarian.

I do, however, think there needs to be a block placed on converting animals... Had a Reborn-bear, was kind of interesting. Gorilla would've been better....

 

[Randomness]

I really don't get the fact that the Scion arcane line is underpowered. Redactors anyone. Grave a couple death manna, upgrade(or have enough death mana to get free upgrades) to death three, and voila, intant HL and wraiths. 4 redactors, and 4 liches, and you're set. Sure the abillity to build awakend is great, if you really need them. I seem to get insanely lucky by the looks of it for awakened though... At 7%-10% chance, I get awakened at least once every ten turns... I end up with 5-7 cities, city size 5-8, and awakend to spare by turn 200.. I do however that Korria defenetly needs a boost. Sure religeon is very useful, but it isn't enough. Maybe Korria needs to be added as hero for her to (not quite sure why Korria herself would not get Korria as a hero. Risen Emperor gets Risen Emporer, as do other civs get their leaders)... In fact, if anything, Korria's Korria hero should be stronger. If their is some lore reason for this, pardon my ignorence, I haven't the time to read through the epicly massive lore.

 

[Tarquelne]

At 7%-10% chance, I get awakened at least once every ten turns...

What speed do you play at?

(You too, TimSLS, if you would.)

I end up with 5-7 cities, city size 5-8, and awakend to spare by turn 200.. I do however that Korria defenetly needs a boost.

Or maybe the Emperor needs a nerf...

(not quite sure why Korria herself would not get Korria as a hero. Risen Emperor gets Risen Emporer, as do other civs get their leaders)

If the Risen Emperor leader is getting the Risen Emperor hero - that's a bug.

 

[MaxAstro]

I end up with 5-7 cities, city size 5-8, and awakend to spare by turn 200.

That seems fairly average for me in any game where spawning goes my way (i.e., any game where I can get the rate above the critical 10% in the first 50 turns), so long as I'm not on the dreaded grassland start.

...Kind of funny to talk about grassland as a crappy start...

 

[Valkrionn]

I really don't get the fact that the Scion arcane line is underpowered. Redactors anyone. Grave a couple death manna, upgrade(or have enough death mana to get free upgrades) to death three, and voila, intant HL and wraiths. 4 redactors, and 4 liches, and you're set. Sure the abillity to build awakend is great, if you really need them. I seem to get insanely lucky by the looks of it for awakened though... At 7%-10% chance, I get awakened at least once every ten turns... I end up with 5-7 cities, city size 5-8, and awakend to spare by turn 200.. I do however that Korria defenetly needs a boost. Sure religeon is very useful, but it isn't enough. Maybe Korria needs to be added as hero for her to (not quite sure why Korria herself would not get Korria as a hero. Risen Emperor gets Risen Emporer, as do other civs get their leaders)... In fact, if anything, Korria's Korria hero should be stronger. If their is some lore reason for this, pardon my ignorence, I haven't the time to read through the epicly massive lore.

True, Redactors ARE technically arcane, but I never really think of druids as arcane line... Completely different techs, after all. And I do tend to get the same amount of awakened you describe, or nearly so, as long as everything goes perfectly. Lacking any luxury resources can HURT. My current game is going well, but only because I made a landgrab in the beginning, took out the elohim to get their dye, gems, and gold... Less scion-friendly starts I've had left me fighting to get 4 decent cities.

The Risen Emperor is unable to build the RE hero, just as Korrina is unable to get the Korrina hero. Korrina does need a boost, but I don't think she needs another hero.

 

[Tarquelne]

Lacking any luxury resources can HURT.

Yep. The map script/settings, game speed, and difficulty level all have major influences on the spawn rate. Given the different settings available it can be hard to determine if there's a problem and where it is.

 

[Randomness]

Hmm... I always thought that only Risen Emporer could get his respective hero... Oh well, I never really looked in to it much, I had other things to think about. @ Tarquelne, I play on normal speed. That spawn rate is pritty much average for me, unless I start in crap tundra/ice start with few or no hills which happens about 1 in 20 times for me...

 

[Valkrionn]

What options do you play with? I've gotten to where I leave Blessing off... I prefer to fight over resources. Used to use PerfectWorld, but I've become attached to the new ErebusContinent map now.... Spreads out the resources you would expect to be spread, but some (Gems, gold, etc) stay clumped. I've razed entire civilizations to get at one resource...

 

[TimSLS]

In answer to Tarquelne's question - I play on normal speed, huge map, 30 civs, emperor difficulty (no game options like blessings that would affect matters).

In my game as the scions, spawn rate hovered around 7-10 percent until turn 100, then increased at a more or less constant rate to a little above 30 percent by turn 200, as the buildings were constructed and recources aquired. Stayed pretty constant for the next 50 turns, though I'm about to build the flesh molding wonder, and I've prepped up body mana nodes, so it may go up.

 

[Tarquelne]

I've razed entire civilizations to get at one resource...

Yeehaw! *That's* the way civ should be played!

****

That's for the answers on game speed, guys. I always play on Epic or Marathon. Do you think the spawn rate is too high? (ie, do you think you'd have an easier time winning with the Scions than with another civ at your difficulty level?) I lifted what seem to be the equivalent #s from the game speed/difficulty files for the spawning adjustments, but I'm not convinced they're equivalent.

And I wonder if I need a mapsize adjustment. Bigger map = more cities = more building based modifiers.
OTOH, that's more cities to populate.

 

[odalrick]

Do you think the spawn rate is too high? (ie, do you think you'd have an easier time winning with the Scions than with another civ at your difficulty level?)

It impossible to say because currently the AI sucks so badly.

And I wonder if I need a mapsize adjustment. Bigger map = more cities = more building based modifiers.
OTOH, that's more cities to populate.

Non-fallow civs have: bigger map => more cities => more food => higher population

One problem I've run into with this is that many mapscrips lie about their size. Rather than a normalized number based on number of landtiles, they report a size based on the preference of the author.

Other civilizations have their population decided by number of landtiles. Scions have their population decided by a vague description of the map.


Another thing, why are Awakened, Reborn and True Pilgrims national units? It screws up the city build queues for no apparent reason.

(Oh, and Martyrs of Patria are worthless.)