Scions documentation

[xienwolf]

It is especially great for making certain you get some Mithril in your territory instead of finding out WAY later in the game that you settled just out of range of the only one on your continent

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

listen to the wolf

that's precisely what I use dowsing for. once you've done some scouting, cast dowsing. then add tags to all the tiles with resources you normally can't see, so that they will remind you later. btw, small question. dowsing will reveal resources even in tiles with fog of war, right ( not tiles that are still hidden of course ) ? I haven't used it an a while so I don't really remember.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

dowsing will reveal resources even in tiles with fog of war, right ( not tiles that are still hidden of course ) ? I haven't used it an a while so I don't really remember.

Yes, even in fog of war.

 

[Tarquelne]

The bazzaar was promptly nerfed without even discussion. OK, 500% may sound overpowering, but was it when someone played the game?

Yep. I built one myself before actually changing the figures. (I had a game with one near completion.) I think the current bonus might *still* be too high, but I like that it's only routes with other civs that you get the boost.

There seems to be a relatively fine line between "Insignificant" and "Too much" for trade route boosts. But I'm sure that +500% is not anywhere near the right side of the line.

why not create a promotion allowing them to settle, and then give a random chance to gain it upon creation? 50% at least, I'd say, or they would have severe problems generating new cities.

I was thinking a promotion that can be gained for any Awakened, but has a gold cost. I'm going to leave this alone. At least for now.

2) difficulty level affecting awakening spawn: I don't like this tbh, I think it's redundant with the other bonuses the AIs get at higher difficulty levels. Deity is already challenging enough without having to also deal with less population, thank you

You mention Deity - if you're playing there you are seeing a reduction. Rates are the same for Immortal and at every other level the difficulty adjustment increases the spawn rate.

If you really want a new civic, maybe rebalance Glory to be a government civic, and attach the spawn bonuses to that?

That's an interesting idea - make people chose between Glory and God King. Though I'd like to just get Aristocracy balanced such that players have difficulty choosing between it and God King.

Aristo. might be much better it it gave a flat increase to spawning rate rather than a % bonus: If your spawning rate is low you may want to keep to GK because you've got to build Awakened. If you're spawning rate is high then a +% Aristo. may make it too high.

Err... +3%, with a +10% multiplier? So if it's +3% under another civic it now becomes 6.6% rather than 4.2%. I think it'd be a larger bonus than x1.4 for any rate below 10%.

Relating the Gekko's post - you'd still be relying on luck, but you wouldn't need to be as lucky.

Arcane does very little to make a civ focused on magic.

I wonder if that depends on how many arcane units you build? I often make a lot, and I really appreciate the extra xps.

As such moving Arcane to Korinna, might be flavourful but not really affect anything. Also, it would be another late game strength for her, when she really needs an early game boost.

True, it's not going to do anything significant for her early game.

Oh yes - I at least implied otherwise earlier, but Korrina isn't getting a spawning penalty anymore, and hasn't for awhile, I think - no mention of it in the code.

If you want a damage dealer invest in Maelstrom or other damage dealers. The advantage of Balefire is that you don't have to get any mana or spend any promotions on it.

Good point. I'm mostly thinking about opportunity cost: Is it useful enough to be actually used? I don't want it to be as good as Maelstrom (I don't want Maelstrom to be as good as Maelstrom ) but I'm going to look at some sort of boost.

Allowing the "Necromancy" promotion to stick around longer might even be enough - so that when you do want to use it you're more likely to have it available.

(Originally I wanted Necromancy to increase the power of summoned creatures. I bet I could do that with the tools now available, but I doubt I should.)

The only reasonable way for mages to gain experience and advancing is combat. Getting +1 strength for something you should already be doing is great. Add +1 xp per combat and higher base strength and you have the best mages in the game.

Hmm, yes. I should use them more often in direct combat and see how that plays out.

A few more observations. The creepers should at least retain their current lifetime in each stage, and perhaps increase the blossom and rooting faces.

Why? Just so they'll be around longer?

My conclusion so far is that the AI counts creepers as military units, meaning that it calculates your military strength including them, before deciding if you are too strong to attack. This IMO, should be changed.

Thanks - I'll check that out.

BtW, it appears that the blossomed(If I am not mistaken) creeper's ability is very easy to resist. I don't think I saw a percentage written in the description, can you enlighten me on the subject?

IIRC it has a "+10%" for resistance rolls, and the base resistance value for units is 20%. So statistically 1 additional unit in 10 will resist.

It is especially great for making certain you get some Mithril in your territory instead of finding out WAY later in the game that you settled just out of range of the only one on your continent

I'd really rather not know and need to go give someone a good thumping.

 

[Valkrionn]

I was thinking a promotion that can be gained for any Awakened, but has a gold cost. I'm going to leave this alone. At least for now.

That would be interesting... Would make gold a limiting factor for Scion expansion rather than Awakened.

Aristo. might be much better it it gave a flat increase to spawning rate rather than a % bonus: If your spawning rate is low you may want to keep to GK because you've got to build Awakened. If you're spawning rate is high then a +% Aristo. may make it too high.

Err... +3%, with a +10% multiplier? So if it's +3% under another civic it now becomes 6.6% rather than 4.2%. I think it'd be a larger bonus than x1.4 for any rate below 10%.

Relating the Gekko's post - you'd still be relying on luck, but you wouldn't need to be as lucky.

That would actually encourage people to use it in the early game, and switch to GK late game, which is what the bonuses are trying to do atm. I like it.

 

[odalrick]

I was thinking a promotion that can be gained for any Awakened, but has a gold cost. I'm going to leave this alone. At least for now.

You could take a page from Civilization III and have new cities cost 2 population. Allow awakened and reborn to cast a spell in size>1 cities that removes one citizen and the reborn, creating a settler.

But I don't think the massive landgrab possible in the beginning is a big deal. You weaken your military and raise upkeep costs. It's just another way scions play differently from other civs.

I wonder if that depends on how many arcane units you build? I often make a lot, and I really appreciate the extra xps.

Experience comes about 35% faster for arcane, however that only really matters for adepts. The passive experience over level 4 is so pathetic that it's mostly irrelevant.

So, assuming you start with 0 xp adepts, it's 50 versus 70 turns to level 4. However, with a few civic choices, the keep and maybe a wonder, you can bypass adept time altogether.

Once they are mages passive xp gain all but stops.

Arcane isn't worthless, but playing Hippus with an arcane leader wont suddenly make them masters of magic, and Amurites won't lose their hordes of powerful mages just because they happen to be led by Mahala.

Oh yes - I at least implied otherwise earlier, but Korrina isn't getting a spawning penalty anymore, and hasn't for awhile, I think - no mention of it in the code.

Good.

Good point. I'm mostly thinking about opportunity cost: Is it useful enough to be actually used? I don't want it to be as good as Maelstrom (I don't want Maelstrom to be as good as Maelstrom ) but I'm going to look at some sort of boost.

It is good enough to be used when you have no other spell to cast, which is exactly how good it should be in my opinion. If you spend the promotions to get another spell, you should want to cast that.

It's a solid backup for when you don't have a damage dealing mana, or for making utility mages contribute to combat.

If you want to improve it, I'd say raising maximum damage is the way to go. A lot of mages will be able to cast it, so that ceiling will be hit quickly.

Maybe in the form of "death affinity'. Each death mana you control boosts maximum damage by 5%, to the absolute maximum 75%. That way it will at the very least compete against the free death summons.

 

[Tarquelne]

Re: Balefire

If you want to improve it, I'd say raising maximum damage is the way to go. A lot of mages will be able to cast it, so that ceiling will be hit quickly.

I looked at it and gave it a slight nerf. It's got a better damage limit than I'd remembered (%50), and unlike the other AoE damage spells it's ImmuneTeam and ImmuneNeutral. I made it Resistible at -10%. Still good for stacks, and nasty if cast by several units within the same turn.

OTOH, Necromancer now lasts at least 3 turns.

 

[Tarquelne]

Here's what I did:

Temple of the Gift replaces Emperor's Mark when built.
Civ Trait is "Fallow" rather than Leaders.
Emperor's Dagger requires level 2 rather than 6, limit 1 rather than 2.
Balefire is resistable at -10
Necromancy lasts 3 turns, then has 50% expiration chance.
Creeper power adjustments (made the unit pow 2, but first and second stages give negative power modifiers.)
Alcinus now starts with Crazed. Mad doesn't give betrayal chance. Enraged Alcinus picks up "Rampage". Rampage has pillageonmove and a 2% betrayal chance.
Aristorcacy gives +4 spawning mod - equiv. to hooking up 4 luxuries. This replaces the +40% modifier.
Awakened no longer among starting units, first city will have 2 pop.

Holding off on any Leader trait shifting for now. (Good points re: the actual value of Arcane, odalrick.) I'm still very open to leader trait and/or civic adjustments.

 

[Iceciro]

FYI, the reason I'm loathe to choose Korinna over the Emperor is that Fall Further's new massive barbarian stacks make an early game, heavy-duty defender like Korinna being tied to your capital pretty incredible.

The main thing the Risen Emperor gives me in playstyle is not so much Arcane as it is Charismatic. Cha is practically a mage-maker trait, especially combined with the light passive XP gain Arcane gives out. Both traits combine quite nicely to let you start spewing out Necromancers as opposed to adepts.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Yep. I built one myself before actually changing the figures. (I had a game with one near completion.) I think the current bonus might *still* be too high, but I like that it's only routes with other civs that you get the boost.

There seems to be a relatively fine line between "Insignificant" and "Too much" for trade route boosts. But I'm sure that +500% is not anywhere near the right side of the line.

Yes, and it is worthless when at war with other civs, which is the frequent case. Nevermind, if you think(meaning both you and Vehem) it really was overpowered, as I have already said, I can live with that.As far as I am concerned, though, I would prefer 25% instead of 10% and 500% foreign routes trade increase. Meaning, I prefer the money changer rather than the bazzaar...

I was thinking a promotion that can be gained for any Awakened, but has a gold cost. I'm going to leave this alone. At least for now.

I think it is bad to change the awakening system. Please leave it as it is.

That's an interesting idea - make people chose between Glory and God King. Though I'd like to just get Aristocracy balanced such that players have difficulty choosing between it and God King.

Aristo. might be much better it it gave a flat increase to spawning rate rather than a % bonus: If your spawning rate is low you may want to keep to GK because you've got to build Awakened. If you're spawning rate is high then a +% Aristo. may make it too high.

Err... +3%, with a +10% multiplier? So if it's +3% under another civic it now becomes 6.6% rather than 4.2%. I think it'd be a larger bonus than x1.4 for any rate below 10%.

As long as all UUs of the Scions come with God King, I still think Aristocracy cant help without a really good incentive other than awakening spawn. I am trying to play my game assuming that I won't be able to have more than 1 awakened per 30 turns. It happens that I get 2 within 10 turns or 1 in 70. In the previous game I played, my first awakened came turn 75 on a standard game in monarch with a 8% awakened spawn rate. At another time, with just 3.6% I got 2 within 6 turns. So, since the RNG is so unpredictable, having higher spawn rates(in the range 3%-9%) does not make a difference.
So, I have to go for wonders that will help me to produce GPs and advance in techs until I can get reborns. I also go for Legates and Doomsayers, so that I have that slim chance((it says 20% but I doubt it is more than 10%) to get one from combat.

Relating the Gekko's post - you'd still be relying on luck, but you wouldn't need to be as lucky.

You always have to be that lucky with the RNG

I wonder if that depends on how many arcane units you build? I often make a lot, and I really appreciate the extra xps.

As a magic-lover, I also appreciate the extra xps. However, Arcane is far weaker in FF than in FFH2, without this being nessessarily a bad thing, since there are other factors contributing to arcane units gaining exp. Plus the fact that Arcane units are too useful to permit them becoming too powerful without having to fight something...

Oh yes - I at least implied otherwise earlier, but Korrina isn't getting a spawning penalty anymore, and hasn't for awhile, I think - no mention of it in the code.

I will also commend on this as "good", but until there is something that actually makes her useful as opposed to lift something that makes her useless, I doubt I will try playing with her.
As Iceciro said, having a hero from the start of the game is too valuable to lose.

Good point. I'm mostly thinking about opportunity cost: Is it useful enough to be actually used? I don't want it to be as good as Maelstrom (I don't want Maelstrom to be as good as Maelstrom ) but I'm going to look at some sort of boost.

Allowing the "Necromancy" promotion to stick around longer might even be enough - so that when you do want to use it you're more likely to have it available.

(Originally I wanted Necromancy to increase the power of summoned creatures. I bet I could do that with the tools now available, but I doubt I should.)

I think it is fine as it is. I am inclined to think that it should last until used. So, you get one free spell for each enemy you actually kill. Also, make it gained automatically upon killing an enemy, as it seems it is just a chance right now.

Why? Just so they'll be around longer?

These are the stages where they are actually useful. So, I would like to have them a bit longer, if this wouldn;t overpower them too much...

IIRC it has a "+10%" for resistance rolls, and the base resistance value for units is 20%. So statistically 1 additional unit in 10 will resist.

Yes, I noticed that later, sorry for that.

I'd really rather not know and need to go give someone a good thumping.

I'd rather know, so that I decide to go for the caminus aureous, as I did in my current game where copper/iron and mithril are too far away.

Fortunatelly, I knew it early! Viva dowsing!

Temple of the Gift replaces Emperor's Mark when built.
Civ Trait is "Fallow" rather than Leaders.
Emperor's Dagger requires level 2 rather than 6, limit 1 rather than 2.
Balefire is resistable at -10
Necromancy lasts 3 turns, then has 50% expiration chance.
Creeper power adjustments (made the unit pow 2, but first and second stages give negative power modifiers.)
Alcinus now starts with Crazed. Mad doesn't give betrayal chance. Enraged Alcinus picks up "Rampage". Rampage has pillageonmove and a 2% betrayal chance.
Aristorcacy gives +4 spawning mod - equiv. to hooking up 4 luxuries. This replaces the +40% modifier.
Awakened no longer among starting units, first city will have 2 pop.

1)Nice
2)Nice
3)Doesn't matter. Never build them anyway.
4-5)I do not think that was needed. After all it is the only spell someone gets after actually risking his caster. Please, review this change.
6)Doesn't matter. I only need him for the tower and the dark counsil. If he leaves, good riddance. I don't need a mad caster in my civ. Next time, I might as well delete him after I complete the Dark Council.
7)Doesn't matter either. God King forever.
8)Too bad. Limiting options, doesn't promote gameplay, seriously nerfing player capability to choose between a quicker early production and spawning rate(2 pop capital) or early handicap for long term rewards(2 1 pop cities) due to forcing 90% research rate(upkeep costs), lower production per city, inability to gather resourses from the begining anyway etc.
Please review this, also.

I have discovered that I cannot turn flooded plains to haunted lands when at war with someone? Hmmm, is that really so?

 

[Valkrionn]

I think it is bad to change the awakening system. Please leave it as it is.

Honestly, the main issue people have reported is the speed with which the Scions can expand in the early game if everything goes well. Tying new cities to a gold cost would really only affect them early on, and would actually be a nice balancing factor... When you haven't had a spawn for a while, you'll more than likely have the gold for the promotion, while if you've been expanding constantly you're forced to choose between further expansion or research, preventing you from getting too far ahead in both.

As long as all UUs of the Scions come with God King, I still think Aristocracy cant help without a really good incentive other than awakening spawn. I am trying to play my game assuming that I won't be able to have more than 1 awakened per 30 turns. It happens that I get 2 within 10 turns or 1 in 70. In the previous game I played, my first awakened came turn 75 on a standard game in monarch with a 8% awakened spawn rate. At another time, with just 3.6% I got 2 within 6 turns. So, since the RNG is so unpredictable, having higher spawn rates(in the range 3%-9%) does not make a difference.
So, I have to go for wonders that will help me to produce GPs and advance in techs until I can get reborns. I also go for Legates and Doomsayers, so that I have that slim chance((it says 20% but I doubt it is more than 10%) to get one from combat.

The only UUs tied to Godking are the Praetorian, the MoP, and the cheaper reborn, True Pilgrim. I tend not to build the MoP either... Tried using them as fodder to weaken Acheron, then realized they had marksman and would attack to warriors in the city . I switch to Godking as soon as I start making Reborn, so long as I have a decent number of the discount resources. Aside from that, I still say Aristocracy is better if your spawn chance is low... Otherwise, GK all the way.

I will also commend on this as "good", but until there is something that actually makes her useful as opposed to lift something that makes her useless, I doubt I will try playing with her.
As Iceciro said, having a hero from the start of the game is too valuable to lose.

I've got to agree... I remember using her constantly back when you were still allowed to build the Tower of Complacency, even though it was my mentioning it that got that little exploit axed... Having a 200+ pop city running Glory on a duel sized map was amazing.

I think it is fine as it is. I am inclined to think that it should last until used. So, you get one free spell for each enemy you actually kill. Also, make it gained automatically upon killing an enemy, as it seems it is just a chance right now.

Can't really comment on this... My magic use as the Scions tends to get no farther than Adepts.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

The only UUs tied to Godking are the Praetorian, the MoP, and the cheaper reborn, True Pilgrim. I tend not to build the MoP either... Tried using them as fodder to weaken Acheron, then realized they had marksman and would attack to warriors in the city . I switch to Godking as soon as I start making Reborn, so long as I have a decent number of the discount resources. Aside from that, I still say Aristocracy is better if your spawn chance is low... Otherwise, GK all the way.

Well, on the other hand, no UUs require Aristocracy. When I wrote "all UUs" I had in mind those not buildable with aristocracy, so, my fault realy.

EDIT:
Having +50% production and commerce in the capital, when trying to build wonders and do research, is much more valuable IMHO. So, I don't feel like sacrificing these bonuces for a remote chance that the RNG will give a number between those 3-4 points I can gain from Aristocracy. If you do the math, you can see how small is the actual difference.

 

[Valkrionn]

Well, on the other hand, no UUs require Aristocracy. When I wrote "all UUs" I had in mind those not buildable with aristocracy, so, my fault realy.

Ah, I was under the impression that you thought there were more. Really though, I'd have to side with others about aristocracy/gk..... Just because GK is more powerful for them, doesn't mean that it should receive all the bonuses... being forced to choose one or the other helps balance the stronger while also providing more variability in game play. I like the mechanic.

 

[Zurai]

How, exactly, is the Dark Council supposed to be created? I've never managed to get the spell icon to light up. I've tried having all 4 council members in the same city as Melante's Mansion, random city, and in the same city as the Thaumaturge's Keep. I havn't tried the capital, come to think of it, but should it REALLY be that specific if that's the requirement? Especially since all four are entirely useless at the capital (Melante and Pelemoc can't do anything useful at the capital, the scout guy whose name escapes me ATM is only useful as a scout, and Alcinus is generally best kept on his keep, which can't be in the capital, for the extra xp).

If that's NOT it, I frankly have no clue what else to try, and none of the documentation provides any insight at all.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

How, exactly, is the Dark Council supposed to be created? I've never managed to get the spell icon to light up. I've tried having all 4 council members in the same city as Melante's Mansion, random city, and in the same city as the Thaumaturge's Keep. I havn't tried the capital, come to think of it, but should it REALLY be that specific if that's the requirement? Especially since all four are entirely useless at the capital (Melante and Pelemoc can't do anything useful at the capital, the scout guy whose name escapes me ATM is only useful as a scout, and Alcinus is generally best kept on his keep, which can't be in the capital, for the extra xp).

If that's NOT it, I frankly have no clue what else to try, and none of the documentation provides any insight at all.

There is no other requirement than the counselours are gathered. I build it every game.

Perhaps post a save game.

 

[Valkrionn]

How, exactly, is the Dark Council supposed to be created? I've never managed to get the spell icon to light up. I've tried having all 4 council members in the same city as Melante's Mansion, random city, and in the same city as the Thaumaturge's Keep. I havn't tried the capital, come to think of it, but should it REALLY be that specific if that's the requirement? Especially since all four are entirely useless at the capital (Melante and Pelemoc can't do anything useful at the capital, the scout guy whose name escapes me ATM is only useful as a scout, and Alcinus is generally best kept on his keep, which can't be in the capital, for the extra xp).

If that's NOT it, I frankly have no clue what else to try, and none of the documentation provides any insight at all.

All that is required is for the 4 Councilors to be in the same, non-capital, city. That would be Themoc, Pelemoc, Melante, and Alcinus. Once they're assembled, select Melante as she is the only one able to cast the spell.

 

[odalrick]

I think it is fine as it is. I am inclined to think that it should last until used. So, you get one free spell for each enemy you actually kill. Also, make it gained automatically upon killing an enemy, as it seems it is just a chance right now.

Don't you want Wraith Lords? Fighting with your Necromancers is the only reasonable way to get them.

Anyway the balefire isn't really the point of Necromancy, is just a minor bonus. The real benefit is +1 strength and lot's of experience. If Necromancy lasted until I cast balefire, I'd never cast balefire again.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

All that is required is for the 4 Councilors to be in the same, non-capital, city. That would be Themoc, Pelemoc, Melante, and Alcinus. Once they're assembled, select Melante as she is the only one able to cast the spell.

The council can be build in the capital. I built it in my current game.

 

[Valkrionn]

The council can be build in the capital. I built it in my current game.

Ah, must have been changed since it was first put in... Never bothered trying after the first time.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Don't you want Wraith Lords? Fighting with your Necromancers is the only reasonable way to get them.

Anyway the balefire isn't really the point of Necromancy, is just a minor bonus. The real benefit is +1 strength and lot's of experience. If Necromancy lasted until I cast balefire, I'd never cast balefire again.

Haha, that was a good one. I missed that small detail. Thanks for reminding it.
Wraith Lords are good, and they, too, get Necromancy IIRC. Their unique spell is very weak, though. I prefer balefire.