Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
You can't even sign OB safely with friends until your military engine is in full swing, because they'll map your territory, sell the maps, then wham, wardecs.
Scions documentation
- Thread starter Tarquelne
- Start date
Most of us don't play MP.
Even if the AI didn't essentially ignore map availability when planning and executing it's assault, it is not advanced enough to derive benefits from having a map of your territory.
The only reason not to open borders is to be able to protect your own hidden nationality units and block expansion into unclaimed territory. And I suppose prevent them from exploring epic dungeons.
Thunder_Gr
Emperor
The AI maps your territory and calculates your army strength. This is what I have deduced after a few games. The AI declared war on me a few turns later than the time it completely mapped my territory and scouted my defences.
Arctic Circle
Prince
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Yep, if you do not allow your neighbours into your borders you can hold of fighting for much longer.
Given the scions theme, they really should be taking the risk of foreign trade and open borders. Besides, building reborn doesn't come too early, so you should have defenses set up by then.
Its always seemed odd to me that there is no middle ground between "lets trade" and "feel free to march your army through my capital." Other civ games had this distinction I think - Alpha Centauri I'm sure of. And certainly its sensible, US and China trade is huge, but the PLC isn't going to station divisions in the Midwest anytime soon. Perhaps in Civ 5...
Thanks for the hard work in making those additions Tarq, they should be very fun. Though I am interested to see how the per turn hammer mechanic impacts things, and the extent to which it shifts production into smaller cities.
Its always seemed odd to me that there is no middle ground between "lets trade" and "feel free to march your army through my capital." Other civ games had this distinction I think - Alpha Centauri I'm sure of. And certainly its sensible, US and China trade is huge, but the PLC isn't going to station divisions in the Midwest anytime soon. Perhaps in Civ 5...
Thanks for the hard work in making those additions Tarq, they should be very fun. Though I am interested to see how the per turn hammer mechanic impacts things, and the extent to which it shifts production into smaller cities.
I haven't seen anything like this. The AI in my games only declares war in a suicidal fashion.
I suppose it could be because I always maintain a defence force, a result of playing with raging barbarians. Also Cartography is a low priority tech for me, so the option to open borders comes late.
But, unless you have anything else than anecdotal evidence, I don't buy that closed borders delays wars.
And I don't see how you could hope to gain by delaying a war, anyway.
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
I've deduced the same thing. I'm not sure how much real evidence I can give you other than that the AIs leave me alone militarily if I play a Tokugawa and don't give anybody OB for a while. They may not derive a benefit, but they may. *shrug*
It's also a matter of RP for me... I don't want the other civs to know anything about my cities. Foreign trade is fine though. It's more than perfectly reasonable for a trade oriented civ to get by with OB with none or only a few cases of OB with close friends. I do it all the time. There's less of a benefit than you'd think.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Had an idea in the More Religions thread, wanted to see what you thought of it Tarq.
Having one of Pelemoc's abilities increase relations with other civs would allow people to maintain open borders without as much fear of invasion.
Tarquelne
Follower of Tytalus
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Had an idea in the More Religions thread, wanted to see what you thought of it Tarq.
Sounds pretty good. I'm concerned about play balance, though. Pelemoc's supposed to be partially balanced by the ill-will he generates. OTOH, if it took awhile, or were quite expensive, it'd mean time or (more) gold could be substituted for "ill-will" at the player's option.
I have to take another look at how his diplomatic penalty grows over time (like, if it really is.)
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
The only time I really get any use out of Pelemoc is when I'm about to declare war anyways. The AI rarely lets its cities go into the green for Succor, and even when it does you get one Reborn out of it after ten turns, by which time the health debuff is gone.
Everything else either lowers my diplomatic numbers or outright declares war, so Pelemoc is basically used as a seige weapon before the seige, and I usually end up declaring with his "steal a pop point" power.
And isn't part of his balancing the fact that his stuff all costs heaps of gold?
Succor really needs to happen faster or something. 10 turns is an eternity.
Everything else either lowers my diplomatic numbers or outright declares war, so Pelemoc is basically used as a seige weapon before the seige, and I usually end up declaring with his "steal a pop point" power.
And isn't part of his balancing the fact that his stuff all costs heaps of gold?
Succor really needs to happen faster or something. 10 turns is an eternity.
BrasucaJoe
Chieftain
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The only time I really get any use out of Pelemoc is when I'm about to declare war anyways. The AI rarely lets its cities go into the green for Succor, and even when it does you get one Reborn out of it after ten turns, by which time the health debuff is gone.
Everything else either lowers my diplomatic numbers or outright declares war, so Pelemoc is basically used as a seige weapon before the seige, and I usually end up declaring with his "steal a pop point" power.
And isn't part of his balancing the fact that his stuff all costs heaps of gold?
Succor really needs to happen faster or something. 10 turns is an eternity.
I have had alot of use with Pelemoc last few games....I enjoy laying Emperor's Claim to everything and everyone, along with the other permanent debuffs.....Screw diplomacy, I always conquer...raze....scorch everything! I think Pelemoc's Horsemen is broken though. I've searched the site all over about it and read nothing so far. The concept sounds fun though. Perhaps I read the help file wrong? Is it another "Leader specific" thing, like Doomsayers,etc.?
As for Succor, I couldn't agree more! 10 turns is a freakin eternity...I think it should be instant is not much shorter....and maybe have a cooldown or something.
Tarquelne
Follower of Tytalus
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It has a cumulative effect - it runs up the "Hurry Anger" counter in the city.. There's no limit on how high the counter can go, but each casting increases the counter by a small, random amount. So it can take many, many castings to push a city into unhappiness and/or revolt.
I'll probably lower it.
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
I didn't know the Horseman did that... hmmm. That's interesting. It's the "Cruel Oppression" thing?
Would that brutalize say, a Cabalim civ?
And I've used all of Pelemoc's abilities at one point or another, though the "steal population" ability is restricted to a wardec situation.
Would that brutalize say, a Cabalim civ?
And I've used all of Pelemoc's abilities at one point or another, though the "steal population" ability is restricted to a wardec situation.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I tend to use his population theft abilities and any unrest abilities just before a war, but that's about it.
BrasucaJoe
Chieftain
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This game that I am utterly dominating atm, I kept my potential enemies practically gimped from the second ol' Pelemoc was spawned. I threw 3 things on just about all of the cities.Emperor's Claim, Corrupt Guild, Scion sympithizers....and sometimes Corrupt Quartermaster for the gold penalty( not as often as the others)..costly on my end, but in the long run...(bout 2K points ahead of the highest score.) But that could be luck or my difficultly rating. I play on Monarch or Prince, which ever is the higher one. I forget. I have not tried out Riot and Sedition, Poison Words, or Strife yet. They just don't seem worth it. I used Corrupt Horsemen a few times, but I guess I just misunderstood its concept. I understand now. Next game should be fun.
Tarquelne
Follower of Tytalus
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Pelemoc's Spells. Spell/cost/delay
Corrupt Guild/150/3 - Requires Guilds
+10% maint. cost, +33% war weariness, -5% defense, -25% trade route yield. Removed by Inquisition.
Corrupt Quartermaster/10
Gives 1 unit in Pelemoc's stack "Corrupt Quartermaster" promo. (+1 gold cost, 5%/turn expiration chance.)
Emperor's Claim/15/3
-1 culture.
Rousing Oration/50
+10% hammers, +3 gold, +1 culture.
Doesn't work in your own cities.
Pelemoc's Horsemen/75 - Requires Way of the Wicked
Adds 0-15 to city's "Hurry Anger timer". 1/150 chance of triggering a war. There's also a small diplomatic relations penalty.
Strife/150
Pop -1
Subversion/300
Pop -1, gives 1 Reborn, 1/5 chance of causing war.
Succor/100/10
Gives 1 Reborn. City must 3 or greater Unhealth total.
Poison Words/120/3
-3 happiness, +33% hurry anger. Removed by Inquisition. 1/20 chance of removal/turn.
Riot and Sedition/100
-4 happiness, -10 defense, -2 gold, units in city get a promo giving -1 move. Promo has 33% chance to expire each turn.
Riot and Sedition "building" has 1/6 chance of expiring each turn.
Scion Sympathizers/25/3 - Requires Fanaticism
+20% maint. cost, +5 crime. Removed by Inquisition.
***
Looking at the full list like that, and assuming the other's are balanced, Pelemoc's Horsemen strikes me as overpriced. (OTOH, I'm not sure how the timer works at different game speeds.)
Corrupt Guild/150/3 - Requires Guilds
+10% maint. cost, +33% war weariness, -5% defense, -25% trade route yield. Removed by Inquisition.
Corrupt Quartermaster/10
Gives 1 unit in Pelemoc's stack "Corrupt Quartermaster" promo. (+1 gold cost, 5%/turn expiration chance.)
Emperor's Claim/15/3
-1 culture.
Rousing Oration/50
+10% hammers, +3 gold, +1 culture.
Doesn't work in your own cities.
Pelemoc's Horsemen/75 - Requires Way of the Wicked
Adds 0-15 to city's "Hurry Anger timer". 1/150 chance of triggering a war. There's also a small diplomatic relations penalty.
Strife/150
Pop -1
Subversion/300
Pop -1, gives 1 Reborn, 1/5 chance of causing war.
Succor/100/10
Gives 1 Reborn. City must 3 or greater Unhealth total.
Poison Words/120/3
-3 happiness, +33% hurry anger. Removed by Inquisition. 1/20 chance of removal/turn.
Riot and Sedition/100
-4 happiness, -10 defense, -2 gold, units in city get a promo giving -1 move. Promo has 33% chance to expire each turn.
Riot and Sedition "building" has 1/6 chance of expiring each turn.
Scion Sympathizers/25/3 - Requires Fanaticism
+20% maint. cost, +5 crime. Removed by Inquisition.
***
Looking at the full list like that, and assuming the other's are balanced, Pelemoc's Horsemen strikes me as overpriced. (OTOH, I'm not sure how the timer works at different game speeds.)
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
The others vary from "Balanced" to "useless" depending on the situation, except Rousing Oration which is pretty much useless to me.
Tarquelne
Follower of Tytalus
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That sounds good. Rousing Oration should probably be beefed up - make it worth the opportunity cost.
Re: Having Pelemoc improve diplomatic status. I think it'd be OK - I'm leaning toward giving it to Melante if it's a straightforward effect (gold for an improvement.) If I figure out some pseudo-religious system then Pelemoc seems more appropriate.
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