Scots Independence?

[Bifrost]

Yes I understand. I'm sorry but its my worse trait saying everything I think about. Maybe youre right - its too late to destroy the UK : the nation poputations are mixed with English, as It is too late to destroy Russia (the same cause)

I'm still chilling my head

 

[Ozz]

Originally posted by MrPresident

I don't want to empower a UK government. I want to empower an English government. I am a citizen of England first, a citizen of the UK second and a citizen of the EU third.

See above. Say for example Canada was run (non-violently) by a North American government, would you support Canadian independence?

Oh so by yer own words yer a second class UK citizen, not
oppressed, but by choice., What happens if yer new England government is not exactly yer cup of Tea, you going to bail on them too.

No i wouldn't, I would see no degradation of my rights, my
lifestyle and I would get a broader stronger country in both
geography and economy. Personally I'd be better off. I'd
still be a Canadian, just like a Texan is from Texas, or a Scot
is from Scotland.

Why do you have a country ?, It is just a way to organize
people to provide a better standard of living for everyone
in it.

 

[Ozz]

Originally posted by Bifrost
Yes I understand. I'm sorry but its my worse trait saying everything I think about. Maybe youre right - its too late to destroy the UK : the nation poputations are mixed with English, as It is too late to destroy Russia (the same cause)
I'm still chilling my head

You sure write interesting posts

We don't really think that way, When I meet someone
I don't think about if their a Scot, or a Catholic because
nobody cares what you are. I think its the same in the
US and UK. There are 14 churchs in my village (4,000)
everything from Anglican to R.C. to Dutch Reformed. I
don't even know what church my next door neighbours
go to, and I don't care eithier. Same goes for what they
are. French, Scott, Indian. whatever.

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by MrPresident


I don't want to empower a UK government. I want to empower an English government. I am a citizen of England first, a citizen of the UK second and a citizen of the EU third.

I see myself as British first and English second, mainly because I define myself against what the rest of the world is, and in that case British is what I feel.

As for the EU, I see myself as a citizen of the EU after British, English, European, human, male, young, white, Anglican, Anglo-Saxon.......What was I talking about? Ah yes, the EU. Yeah, that appears somewhere below all else.

 

[veal]

I couldnt even imagine the variety of "correct" nicks I have : someone had already called me "bit-frost" or even better: "beefroast" now I found out the last version "biofrost" . Mmm... what does this new nick mean? Maybe you'd explain me?

yeah sorry I think biofrost is from a sci-fi or something just kinda stuck in my head without even thinking about it.

The USSR collapsed without war campaigns.So the situation is not "like it was in USSR".

As u have chilled out I won't try and stir the pot any more, but just to let you know the people of Vilnius have not forgot the storming of the tv tower even if "mother" Russia has.

Thanks for "soviet spin on all problems in the world", COMRRRAD

No worries mate! (Australian colloquialism)

Also I might add that I enjoy your posts on this site at least there is a different perspective.

 

[Hamlet]

It won't happen. At least, not in my lifetime. The majority of Scots supported devolution, however the number that support indepdence, which is a different thing entirely, is small. (My ICM/The Scotsman poll puts it at about 27% [Which tends to generally be the average and stays relatively static.] at February 2000. [Contrasting with 46% that wanted merely devolution.])

And even discussing any form of Welsh indepdance is purely academic.

So unless people forsee some great social upheval or turnaround in attitudes, then I can't envisage an indepdant Scotland at any time in the immediate future, so I'm not terribly sure what the 'They should and will become independent!' people are voting on the basis of.

Personally, I think the end of The Union, which is a completely artifical and bizzare creature, would be a good thing, and would give people a better sense of what their actual identity was, but that's a different thing entirely.

 

[redtom]

Originally posted by Bifrost


I couldnt even imagine the variety of "correct" nicks I have : someone had already called me "bit-frost" or even better: "beefroast" now I found out the last version "biofrost" . Mmm... what does this new nick mean? Maybe you'd explain me?

The frase about "fight for independence" was written at the moment I was reading the Burns' poetry... it inspires to write smthg like that.

The USSR collapsed without war campaigns.So the situation is not "like it was in USSR".

Army - its really false? And Ulster must be demilitarized zone.

And theres smthg else to mention: In my first post I wrote ".... the Scotts, Welsh,and certainly Irish must have independence if they want it. IF THEY WANT IT.

Thanks for "soviet spin on all problems in the world", COMRRRAD

Actually, the debacle over Afghanistan is usually blamed for the USSR breaking up.

 

[redtom]

1.Why do Americans think everyone in the United Kingdom hates the United Kingdom? Its been round for nearly 200 years, and without a doubt I will see its bi-centennial.

The main reason for rather negative thoughts about UK by UK subjects* is the same reason every other person in the world hates central government, they don't address local concerns as much as some of these parochial idiots would like.

I find the whole nationalist agenda rather stupid. The "minorities" feel seperated from power the same as me, I'm white, middle class and live ten miles from the Houses of Parliament and I feel seperated from power just as much as them.

Its not about breaking up the union to make people feel more in power of there own destinies, it should be for greater power of the individual, greater regionalism, more powers for the councils etc. Thats how you increase peoples sense of self-worth not breaking up to allow the same problems to continue.

ps. Sorry about this rant.

2.Independence from what?
Has an "equal and fair" union everyone under the Act of Union 1707 are effectively British. How is a Brit meant to be seperated from Britain?

*All Commonwealth citizens, that have the Queen as their head of state, including Britain, are known as subjects.

 

[Wild Weasel]

Originally posted by redtom
*All Commonwealth citizens, that have the Queen as their head of state, including Britain, are known as subjects.

This was true only until January 1st 1983. After that time, people born in Britain became British Citizens, people born in places such as Hong Kong or the Falkland Islands became British Dependant Citizens, and British Subject-ship became limited to places such as Gibraltar, the Cayman Islands etc.

I know all about this stuff. Trying to get your Czech wife the right to settle here tends to broaden your horizons on who is actually allowed through the door.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by redtom
2.Independence from what?
Has an "equal and fair" union everyone under the Act of Union 1707 are effectively British. How is a Brit meant to be seperated from Britain?

Are you telling me that people don't have dual nationalities as English and Scottish persons as well as British?

The Act of Union binds two similar, albeit quite different nations and peoples together. Nothing more. It did not abolish Scotland and England, nor did it abolish English and Scottish identities.

Originally posted by redtom
*All Commonwealth citizens, that have the Queen as their head of state, including Britain, are known as subjects.

Nope. Check The British Nationality Acts. (1948 and 1981)

 

[Hamlet]

I was pondering what would happen should Scotland go independant at some point in the future, and it's quite intresting. The implications would be big - Would England revert back to The old Red and White? What would the status of Wales become? What would happen to the mood in NI?

All quite intresting from an theoretical perspective.

Oh and by the way, this should be in the Off-Topic forum.

Additionally, I think the original poster meant something along the lines of 'Incorporated into a European Federation' rather than 'incorporated into The EU', which Britain already is.

 

[Bifrost]

As u have chilled out I won't try and stir the pot any more, but just to let you know the people of Vilnius have not forgot the storming of the tv tower even if "mother" Russia has.

Well, I know about Vilnius, there were some more conflicts in the Baltic states, but those conflicts never led to the wars. Actually the majoriy of modern revolutions dont have any war actions during their realizing - just some small conflicts like collisions of demonstrants and police.

Originally posted by veal
No worries mate! (Australian colloquialism)

Water is carried by offended.(Russian stupidity)

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by Hamlet


Are you telling me that people don't have dual nationalities as English and Scottish persons as well as British?

For nationality purposes, I am British. There is no mention of Englishness on my passport, and for foreign affairs, England/Scotland etc does not exist.

Obviously, England does exist, but to the ROW it is Britain.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Pillager
For nationality purposes, I am British. There is no mention of Englishness on my passport, and for foreign affairs, England/Scotland etc does not exist. Obviously, England does exist,

Voila, my point. The Union attempts to suprress both Scottish, Welsh, and English identites in favour of the vacuous notion of 'Britishness'.

Originally posted by Pillager
but to the ROW it is Britain.

Most forgeigners seem to merely call GBR 'England', and they have done since the year dot, so I'm not sure where you're coming from here.

 

[Pillager]

1. The United Kingdom is no more arbitary than other national identities. The English are far more similar to the Welsh than are the French.




2. Where I'm coming from is that, regardless of foreigners' ignorance, for foreign affairs we are the United Kingdom.

 

[redtom]

The reason why people call Great Britain, England, is because they are ignorant bloody foreigners

 

[TheStinger]

England ceased to exist in any meaninful sense following the act of Union 1707.

Most people in the UK feel British aswell as being Scottish or English or Welsh.

I don't know why some people in Scotland think they would be better off getting controlled by Brusels rather than London, Unless they think they will get a higher subsidy in return for having no influence at all.

 

[MrPresident]

Most people in the UK feel British aswell as being Scottish or English or Welsh.

I seriously doubt this, especially during major international sporting events.

I don't know why some people in Scotland think they would be better off getting controlled by Brusels rather than London

It's Brussels and they would get an increased control over themselves. That is the thing I don't get about anti-Europeans but pro-Britains, they oppose Brussels' control but welcome London's.

 

[redtom]

Originally posted by MrPresident

I seriously doubt this, especially during major international sporting events.

It's Brussels and they would get an increased control over themselves. That is the thing I don't get about anti-Europeans but pro-Britains, they oppose Brussels' control but welcome London's.

I know many Scots including my uncle who support Scotland firstly then England/Wales/N. Ireland/Ireland secondly. All Scots do support the British team in the Olympic. Britain maybe a country that is in four but we are all one. No Scots, Welsh, or Northern Irish or English (except those scummy IRA) betrayed Britain in any war.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Pillager
1. The United Kingdom is no more arbitary than other national identities.

I would disagree. Britishness is, by it's nature, an artifical construct. A highly developed one, but an artifical one, none the less.

Originally posted by Pillager
The English are far more similar to the Welsh than are the French.

And?

The French are more similar to Belgians than they are to Spaniards. This doesn't amount to some sort of Franco-Belgian super-identity.

Originally posted by Pillager
2. Where I'm coming from is that, regardless of foreigners' ignorance, for foreign affairs we are the United Kingdom.

Errrmmm, and?

You said to the rest of the world, Britian is know as Britian. It isn't. Whatever people think near where you live is irrelevant to your original statement.

Britian is know as England to foreigners, because, simply, the notion of Britishness is so weak to people of non-Britishness, as to be irrelevant, and is barely prevalent to Britons themselves.

Where I live, in The North East, I see plenty of English flags, but The Union Jack is completely absent, which is no exageration.