Security or cover-up?

[GinandTonic]

I didn't see where the A10 asked for the wrong spot. The FAC made it clear there weren't any friendlies anywhere close to him and the FAC knew where the A-10s where at. Where did you read that there was a correct pos report on the scout column? Just because their command told them to move up didn't mean they weren't sent in to a free fire zone.

Circling at an altitude of 12,000ft, the A-10s spotted Iraqi vehicles 800 yards north, and the British patrol less than three miles west. ERROR ONE came when they asked the Forward Air Controller, call sign Manila Hotel, if friendly forces were around the Iraqi vehicles — not to the west. In ERROR TWO neither pilot gave the precise grid references for the Household Cavalry patrol to double check its identity.

So they asked is there were friendlies three miles away, which there were not.

Why are you so sure the A-10s did something wrong? The DOD had to do an investigation on this matter by MCO (some number). And I would bet the farm that the MOD did a investigation in to this matter as well (reason why they were given the tape). If anything, you should be pushing for the MOD to release their findings to even see if they found error with the A-10s. There could be reasons (i listed a few in the other thread) as to why the A-10 would be found not at fault.

ERROR THREE saw them convince themselves the identification panels were really orange rocket launchers.

In ERROR FOUR POPOV36 decides to attack, saying he is “rolling in” — without permission from the Forward Air Controller. POPOV35 asks for artillery to fire a marker round into the target area to clear up confusion.

But ERROR FIVE came when POPOV36 attacked without waiting for it. In ERROR SIX POPOV36 strafes the column for a second time but still doubts its identity.

Not to mention ignoring the signal flares.

To be honest the real problem is the lack of any faith in the probity of the DoD investigation. The Italians have launched an in absentia prosicution of US soldier Mario Lozano for murder after the business with the hostage rescue.

Obviously the US will not extradite him to face charges.

The real kicker for the Italy business is that within houres of the death of Agent Calipari the car had been removed and destroyed and all the army logs were destroyed. But thats fine. Everyone fully cleared. Not even the suggestion of perverting the course of justice. No-one responsible for the "destruction" of the army logs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6339021.stm

Just as we were told that the tape had been destroyed the Italians are told the logs have been destroyed. There is not even the slightest censure of any of these acts. Hell popov35 has been promoted.

 

[GinandTonic]

Woody?....

 

[woody60707]

So they asked is there were friendlies three miles away, which there were not.

ERROR ONE came when they asked the Forward Air Controller, call sign Manila Hotel, if friendly forces were around the Iraqi vehicles — not to the west. In ERROR TWO neither pilot gave the precise grid references for the Household Cavalry patrol to double check its identity.

1337.16 POPOV35:Confirm, north 800 metres. Confirm there are no friendlies this far north on the ground.1337.21 MANILA HOTEL:That is an affirm. You are well clear of friendlies.
The A-10 asked to confirm that no friendlies were this far north, he was told Affirm and that he was well clear of frinedlies. As for error two, the FAC knows where the A-10s are. But I have no clue if SOP says to give girds, but no one on the other side of the net is asking for a grid.

ERROR THREE saw them convince themselves the identification panels were really orange rocket launchers.

In ERROR FOUR POPOV36 decides to attack, saying he is “rolling in” — without permission from the Forward Air Controller. POPOV35 asks for artillery to fire a marker round into the target area to clear up confusion.

But ERROR FIVE came when POPOV36 attacked without waiting for it. In ERROR SIX POPOV36 strafes the column for a second time but still doubts its identity.

Your right in error 3, they missed ID a friendly as a hostile. And this is a VERY big one. But with out knowing the criteria for IDing a hostile or what the weapons control statue was ect ect. They may not be at fault. As for error 4, I am not sure if they have to ask to engage when directed to a target. As for why 36 didn’t wait for the new arty round. He thought he was sure. It seems 35 got on station later and didn’t see the first WP round that 36 saw. Error 6 is error 4, not sure why this is a new error?

Not to mention ignoring the signal flares.

To be honest the real problem is the lack of any faith in the probity of the DoD investigation. The Italians have launched an in absentia prosicution of US soldier Mario Lozano for murder after the business with the hostage rescue.

Obviously the US will not extradite him to face charges.

The real kicker for the Italy business is that within houres of the death of Agent Calipari the car had been removed and destroyed and all the army logs were destroyed. But thats fine. Everyone fully cleared. Not even the suggestion of perverting the course of justice. No-one responsible for the "destruction" of the army logs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6339021.stm

Just as we were told that the tape had been destroyed the Italians are told the logs have been destroyed. There is not even the slightest censure of any of these acts. Hell popov35 has been promoted.

Did 35 fire? I don't remember if he did. Also it seemed that 36 was in command and was the one to do the ID. So if 36 already (mis)-ID the targets and ordered 35 to fire, then 35 may not be at fault at all.

I am not trying to prove the A-10s are innocent, but i am saying that depending on may other items not in the gun video, they may not be the most to blame. Or maybe a whole host of people messed up. you shouldn't just assume that it was the a-10s fault.

 

[bigfatron]

I think we are missing the bigger issue here.

I don't think anyone will argue that there is confusion about the exact cause of the mistake, and no-one thinks these pilots deliberately set out to killl their allies - that is absolutely clear.

The wider question is this:
- Are the US authorities bothered that their approach to UK law and treatment of UK citizens is really, really angering the people of the UK?
And are they bothered that this anger is concentrated - for the first time I can recall - amongst those (e.g. the military, financial services industry, establishment generally) who have been the natural supporters of the US until now?

Pretty much across the political establishment, the idea of a 'special relationship' is ebbing very fast - the view is that Blair put out for Bush in a big way, and got treated like a puppy in return. Your closest ally is very pissed at you, not in the press of the chattering classes, but in the corridors of power. I would have thought that is not a good thing in this troubled world...

BFR

 

[GinandTonic]

Pretty much across the political establishment, the idea of a 'special relationship' is ebbing very fast - the view is that Blair put out for Bush in a big way, and got treated like a puppy in return. Your closest ally is very pissed at you, not in the press of the chattering classes, but in the corridors of power. I would have thought that is not a good thing in this troubled world...

Yeah they had this on question time tonight and it was Freddy Forsyth, that well known SAS fetishishist and advocator of medieval anti-IRA measures, who was most enraged. The right are joining the left and centre on the (anti)warpath on the issue. I dont see how any politician will be able to stay in Iraq beyone the summer.

We now have complete non-partisan hatred.