Self Made Billionaire: Myth or Reality?

Eh, but she is a woman, and women are indisputably inherently disadvantaged, so she deserves a minus X modifier, so turning to a sex tape to become famous becomes... well.. I report, you decide.

I put no gender or race requirements on it in my OP.

Reasonably modest means. If you want a number the bottom 70% of whatever culture you're from.

I just wanted to see how many billionaires CFC can think of using that criteria. That's it.

Where you draw ethical lines etc about them us up to you. I don't mind George Lucas for example but not a Musk/Zuckerberg/Gates type fan.

Obviously it's not impossible to do.
 
I put no gender or race requirements on it in my OP.

Reasonably modest means. If you want a number the bottom 70% of whatever culture you're from.

I just wanted to see how many billionaires CFC can think of using that criteria. That's it.

Where you draw ethical lines etc about them us up to you. I don't mind George Lucas for example but not a Musk/Zuckerberg/Gates type fan.

Obviously it's not impossible to do.
Nope, too late for that, again YOU said:
Think people are over analysing it. Throw some names up then argue over the merits or how ethical they made money.
Which is what I've been saying all along is the real point of this discussion. So what's on the table is Kim Kardashian. I raised her as a question, you replied that she was a silver spoon, I responded by saying her being a woman nullified that and added that she is a pioneer of a whole media industry genre. What is you response? Or concede that you're wrong and name another rich-celeb and we can discuss them instead.
 
Nope, too late for that, again YOU said: Which is what I've been saying all along is the real point of this discussion. So what's on the table is Kim Kardashian. I raised her as a question, you replied that she was a silver spoon, I responded by saying her being a woman nullified that and added that she is a pioneer of a whole media industry genre. What is you response? Or concede that you're wrong and name another rich-celeb and we can discuss them instead.

Read my OP. At best a middle class back ground.

Kardashians fail that requirement right there.

You're the one strawmanning. I put that requement thinking of Trump or kids of royalty in petrostates etc.

Kardashians had nothing to do with it.
 
Looking a bit more at the question of how many we can think of (or in my case, find). A couple candidates.

Bernie Ecclestone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Ecclestone). Son of a fisherman. Made his money through racing and Formula 1. How ethical? I'm not sure, but sounds like a pedestrian enough early life.

Bernard Lewis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis_(entrepreneur)). Son of greengrocers.

Laurence Graff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Graff, https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0813/084.html?sh=32a5979220cc), son of immigrants to London's East End; father ran a sweets shop before the war.

It is true that there seem to be a lot more who have at least upper-middle-class backgrounds (Richard Branson's father was a barrister, for instance), or for whom I'd have to go find a book at the library to determine their background.

It would be interesting to see a quantitative analysis (however subjective it would have to be) of the backgrounds of billionaires, as well as whether the most publicly well-known ones differ from that profile. Perhaps billionaires who grew up in a poor family don't like to publicize that? Perhaps old-money billionaires are famous in part because their parents were also famous? There are a couple thousand of them now, so it would take far longer than I care to undertake, but it could make for a good article.

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If we can adjust for inflation, an example I don't have to search for is Andrew Carnegie. Son of a weaver father and a meat pie seller mother, the family borrowed money to move to America from Scotland. He became a child laborer to support the family after his father quit his new job, working 72 hours a week at age 12. Fast forward several decades, and he sold his steel interests for $500 million in cash to J.P. Morgan.

Now, he was no fan of unions, and had fairly monopolist tendencies. But definitely rags to riches. And I don't know if he imposed any conditions on his workers that were tougher than what he himself had experienced while growing up. So for the times...
 
I heard on the radio that Will Smith is to play Richard Williams, father of Venus and Serena, in a movie. Do the girls count?
 
She basically pioneered inventing an industry.
I don’t know, I think the Gabor sisters did a good one on that daahling.

Self-made? Sure, as much as anyone would be in that position. I mean, if I were ranking women in the public entertainment eye who have gone from little to plenty, I’d sooner put Oprah on that list.
 
I heard on the radio that Will Smith is to play Richard Williams, father of Venus and Serena, in a movie. Do the girls count?
From wiki:

Serena Williams: Prize money US$ 94,518,971
Venus Williams: Prize money US$42,173,992
So perhaps not?
 
Read my OP. At best a middle class back ground.

Kardashians fail that requirement right there.
I know that. Again I'm rejecting the notion that a person can't be "self-made" based on the claim that they had some kind of advantage or "head start". As you've demonstrated, that distinction is meaningless, because your definition of "head start" is too fluid, besides being based on misperceptions and misinformation. It essentially means whatever you want it to mean. Like with the disqualification for "Ivy League" apparently premised on the notion that going to an Ivy League school gives someone a "head start" or some unfair advantage, despite the fact that people don't actually even go to college until adulthood. Coupled with the fact that you apparently, like most people, didn't even know what "Ivy League" meant in the first place. Clarence Thomas was born into a Georgia sharecropper family and ended up going to Yale Law school. Is he disqualified from being considered "self made" because he went to Yale? The whole disqualification system you've premised this OP-question on is preposterous and I'm trying to get you to see that.

You can't disqualify anyone from being "self made" because "self made" doesn't mean anything that can be concretely defined. That's why I keep pointing out that the real whole point of this exercise is to talk about which filthy rich people we think "deserve" to be filthy rich, versus who we think are rich scum and/or who don't deserve it and why.
 
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Ooh! Ooh! :bounce: Pick me! Pick me! :wavey: I know the answer! This is an easy one! Like I've said earlier, the underlying idea behind the question is "deserve", so the answer is easily... No. You absolutely don't "deserve" to have over 90,000 times you "fair share" of global GDP based on what you actually did... which boiled down to basics, is you collected a few dozen cans, that you didn't even buy, but were in fact, actually bought by others. Then you went and "cashed in" the cans, which were essentially garbage and you could only "cash in" because of a government created recycling program that you had nothing to do with the creation or implementation of. Then you bought a piece of paper with numbers on it, to essentially gamble. Then you won the gambling contest, which was totally random and required no skill or work whatsoever on your part. Then you went online and clicked a few buttons on the computer, to do what was essentially another gamble, which you again won, which was again random, not based on any skill or work on your part. You then had the good sense to cash out when you had obviously won the gamble.

So to recap, the only thing that can be attributed to your actual "work" or "skill" is you picked up a couple pounds / kilo of garbage and then had the good sense to cash out when your gamble on crypto paid off. So no you obviously don't "deserve" a billion dollars for that. You're not "self made" because you didn't "make" anything. What "made" you is a couple government programs and essentially a private online casino, where you placed one bet. You didn't "make" the casino or the government programs, so you had virtually no agency in "making" your riches. You just had improbably good luck. That's not "self made" by any stretch of the imagination.:nope:

Which step in the process was 'unfair', such that the outcome is not deserved? Which step would require intervention by society to prevent? Which step can someone step in and just take the money and it not really be theft, because it wasn't deserved in the first place?

But I object to the denigration of 'can collecting'. The protagonist was paid by society to clean up litter (which I'd specified). It's not a 'hand out', any more than garbage collectors are getting a handout. It's a paid civil service.

If a person became a millionaire by collecting littered cans, there's no way we'd say they didn't deserve to be a millionaire.

Winning a lottery contest is 'lucky', but if we're going to say someone doesn't deserve because there's a luck component, then the entire exercise is moot. Once we allow or disallow luck, then it's just a question of 'how much luck'. Additionally, unlike the luck of good genetics, my protagonist willingly engaged in the risky activity against other people who'd willingly done so (plus the victims of gambling addiction). But the taxes on this were paid, and is it the protagonist's 'fault' that the government doesn't properly spend on gambling addictions?

I'd said that the crypto trading was through active trading, and required out-thinking people on the other side of the trade who thought he was wrong. It's impossible to separate luck from skill when it comes to trading, but it's still an adversarial process that only has willing participants.

That said, based on your answer, we've just defined away the concept.
 
I still can't believe that's a television show people have watched.
 
That said, based on your answer, we've just defined away the concept.
Correct, which I'm going to say is proof of my concept/thesis that a "self made billionaire" does not exist, and is an inherently flawed, fantastical-thinking concept, if taken literally. However, my second contention is that the notion of "self made billionaire" is really just a euphemism for signifying belief that the person has "earned" or "deserves" the wealth.
If a person became a millionaire by collecting littered cans, there's no way we'd say they didn't deserve to be a millionaire.
Putting aside the fact that you said "millionaire" as opposed to "billionaire", I have to admit that at least philosophically, I'd have to concede that I'd tend to agree with you on that. It's pretty miserly to try and argue that they don't deserve it. However, this was such a lovely thought exercise that I went ahead and did the math. TL;DR, this hypothetical fails because its not actually logistically possible.

So first of all, this hypothetical is immediately rendered impossible because we have to make some baseline assumptions that aren't even possible. For example, our protagonist will work every single day with absolutely no time off for sickness, injury, holidays, family events, etc., and the protagonist will never take more than his 8 hour per day allotment for all his can-cashing-in, eating, sleeping and pooping needs and will work tirelessly for the other 16 hours every single day. Finally, we assume that our naughty protagonist will never ever pay a single dime in taxes and we will give him a pass on that, in terms of being "self made", despite you explicitly referencing that this would be in your view, disqualifying. Finally and most importantly, we will assume that our protagonist is able to somehow obtain food and drink for absolutely free and never has to spend a single penny on his own sustenance... again, we will give him a pass on that in terms of being "self made", or we can just assume he drinks rainwater and eats wildflowers, or garbage or cooks roadkill, whatever, as opposed to panhandling (which he doesn't have time for anyway) or accepting "handouts".

So again, putting the impossibility of the above aside, here is how we get our hero his millionaire status. One million divides neatly into $0.05 returns for cans, giving us 20 million cans needed to be collected to reach the million dollars. Since we aren't going to make our protagonist a truant child, we can start him off on his journey the day he turns 18 and no longer has to attend school or be under his lazy evil wicked stepmothers thumb. We will give him a longer than average life, and let him make it to 78 years old, despite the backbreaking journey he is embarking on. So that gives him 60 years to do his life's collecting work. That works out to 333,333.3(continuing) cans per year. That means he will need to gather 913.24 cans per day, which, based on a 16 hour "Frost Punk" style work day, that works out to roughly 57 cans per hour, which of course you can see is about a can per minute, all day, every day, which is not physically possible, no matter how filthy and littered the city wherer you are collecting is. Sure you could occasionally hit the mother lode where you find a large pile of cans in a corner or alley or whatever, but remember, our hero is collecting litter, as you said, so he isn't raiding trash/recycle bins. He is walking the streets, from place to place, picking up a can at a time. No way you find a can a minute doing that. But assuming he does all that, at 78 years old, he would have a million dollars for his next of kin to inherit through probate, since he never had time to marry, have any children or write a will.

Again, this is a lovely thought exercise and I'd love to continue fleshing this out. I will look again at the rest of what you said and respond to that later, because you bring so many more interesting points in the rest of your post.
 
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Kardashian
 
That's why I keep pointing out that the real whole point of this exercise is to talk about which filthy rich people we think "deserve" to be filthy rich, versus who we think are rich scum and/or who don't deserve it and why.
I disagree. We can all have our own definition of “self-made” and whatever the opposite is, and it can be fluid based on whatever factors we choose.

Rather than a binary 0/1, maybe the definition could be a scale or a ranking. I don’t think anyone would disagree if I said it’s probably easier to go from $1m to $2m than $0 to $1m*, so maybe we can define it with some kind of unit.

Just off the top of my head, I was thinking of giving a point for every zero added. If Kim Kardashian went from $10m to $1000m, that’s 2 points. I cited Oprah before, and let’s say she started at $.01m, moving that decimal over she’s at 5 points. I somehow would have negative points, oops!

But to me the question doesn’t have anything to do with who deserves what. :)

*PM me if you think it is and know how
 
Putting aside the fact that you said "millionaire" as opposed to "billionaire", I have to admit that at least philosophically, I'd have to concede that I'd tend to agree with you on that.

I'd switched units because you'd disputed the original $2 spent to purchase the lottery ticket.

But also, the same process that makes a billion dollars undeserved can make a million dollars undeserved. Or $2 undeserved.
 
I disagree, there is every reason to bring race into it, as race is definitely often made a factor in whether someone is perceived as "self-made", or more specifically "deserving" of their achievements, wealth, status, ie, the view that a person only got into said Ivy League school because of affirmative action, as just one example. Furthermore, being white is often perceived/portrayed as an advantage in a person's ability to become "self-made" or again, "deserving" of what they have acquired.
Haven't noticed this. People love to talk about Will Smith, JZ, even 50c being "self made". Rags to riches (via strength, cunning & hard work) is perhaps the most dominant theme in rap music (getting them hoes being a close 2nd).
 
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