September Update Thread

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In a game where your economy is mostly based on working tiles, you're going to continue to have strange issues like this.

And it got way worse in Civ6 too :D
The problem of coastal cities is damn impossible to solve in aby way more elegant than this patch buff 'sea yields appearing out of thin air'. Because, you know, water is water. You cannot inhabit, develop, upgrade or exploit water besides fish and oil. There are only so many stupid resources Firaxis can invent such as 'crabs' to make up for this.

And even if you manage to mechanically balance water cities, by giving them yield bonuses 'simulating' sea benefits, then you still have unsolvable problem of water heavy cities being more boring than land ones... Unless you replace tile-based-district-system with some other economic system lol.
 
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I find the discussion about "dead" areas interesting...I actually think it could be a valid approach to city placement. Fallen Enchantress did this, there were only certain areas could be settled. That made potential city spots extra valuable, as you couldn't just plop down cities anywhere (not until you got a powerful and expensive spell to revive land later on, at least). The uninhabited lands, meanwhile, would contain a mix of resources and dangers, which you would interact with through your armies or by building outposts.

I think a similar approach could work for civ as well, where not every position on the map could support a major city. This would mean fewer cities, but they would each have much higher value. City settling requirements could be eased with technological development, but the land would not have to be "dead" in the mean time. It could contain resources, outposts, villages, barbarians and so on, and the terrain would matter with regards to moving units through it. You would still be interacting with it, but in different ways than just filling it up with cities.

For most of human history (in game terms, until about the Renaissance Era and later) there were very specific requirements to place a city anywhere:
1. Water. As in Potable Water. ALL cities were next to a river, lake, oasis or other source of fresh water. There were no exceptions. As cities grew too large for local water sources, they either invested major resources in providing water (Assyria, Babylon and possibly Harappans all had 'aqueducts' or similar structures long before the Romans) or the city stopped growing. Major Drought lasting too long caused cities to be abandoned completely.
2. Food. Almost a no-brainer, but it means certain types of terrain, like deep desert or year-round frozen arctic that have neither access to water nor food sources cannot be settled by any concentration of people above a fishing village (arctic) or (very sparse) nomad group.

So, for about the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the game, there should be places on the map that simply will not support a city. BUT these same places will support some settlement below city level: hunting and fur-trapping camps in the arctic, fishing villages even on arctic shores, trade routes across deserts - and peoples native to most regions that are quite at home there, if thin on the ground. That means the game desperately needs a Sub-City Settlement of some kind - an 'Outpost' if you will - that allows you to exploit resources and perhaps claim territory, but does not have all the 'benefits' of a City - like Districts, Buildings, and Population Growth.

Suggestions:
1. No city can grow without Water access. IF there isn't an Oasis tile, river, lake, OR non-desert/tundra Mountain tile (because Mountains have streams running off them if there is any rain/precipitation at all in the region) in the city radius, then any city growth should be severely constrained - as in Impossible.
BUT from the Late Ancient Era, say about Tech: Masonry, you can 'invest' in a Water Supply System - a primitive aqueduct, basin, qanat system - to bring water from a source 1 - 3 tiles away to the city site. To make this a Non-Universal Solution, it might be tied to having a source of Stone available (and worked) to build your water courses, dams, basins, etc.

This would make it possible to build substantial (for the Era) early cities at Oasis, on the edge of Deserts or Tundra or other 'marginal' locations, but an entire Civilization of such cities would be near-impossible, as it should be.

2. ANY city with Sea Trade access and a Fresh Water supply - on a river leading to the sea, on the coast with Grasslands, Marsh or Floodplain tiles - has virtually no limits on growth, because food and any other requirements can be imported from the Ancient Era on by boat, canoe, raft, or (slightly later) sailing ship. This also gives Coastal Cities one of their Major Bonuses early in the game: less 'limits to growth' than almost any other city placement.

3. With Railroad connection, Any City almost anywhere has no limits to Growth: food and any other required Bulk Supplies can be brought almost any distance by rail in quantities simply impossible by any other kind of transportation. Consequently, placing railroads 'into the wilderness' turns the wilderness into a string of newly-valid City Sites. Look at the historical growth of cities in Siberia: as stated elsewhere, minor settlements until the railroad arrived, then major metropolises like Perm, Chelyabinsk, Irkutsk, etc. strung all the way from the Urals to Vladivostok along the railroad.
 
Okay, what about this solution: in future games you don't actually build districts outside cities, they go back to city center (with some innovations to make them more fun than than civ5). However instead land cities can develop Settlements combining more population with special bonuses. Sea heavy cities can't build many Settlements, but instead every coast city automatically gets a) Strong buff simulating fish and other sea food b) Access to really powerful sea trade minigame.

The end result is:
- Both sea and land cities have access to the science, religion, culture, industrial district because they are again build inside city centre
- Land cities can exploit resources and get access to powerful Settlements minigame
- Sea cities get automatic 'sea food' balance bonus and access to powerful Sea Trade minigame.
 
Barbarians cannot raze capitals.

As I stated earlier I doubt there is anything - probably just a joke from Dennis that is being looked into far too much. Maybe at the most a cool New World wonder like Deliverator suggested.
Well barbarians definitly could raze capitals on release:
https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/58u6w0/barbarians_raze_sumerias_capital_to_the_ground/
But whether it has changed with updates and/or expansions, I don't know about that. Anyway City-state cities are not considered the same as AI/player capitals, since the player/AI can raze them but not capitals. So I expect that barbarians can raze city-states too like player/AI. I see posts on internet verifying that. But that's not proof on it's own, so I am going to test it for myself anyway and will share it with you.

About the mystery part, well how Dennis Shirk does make it sound, I think that there is some small thing added. But marketing wise not that important to mention what it is, but rather making a mystery of it as we civfanatics will going to speculate about it.
 
I really don't like the idea of changing the mechanics of border expansion. However, I really like the suggestion of switching the factor to Loyalty rather than culture and making it so loyalty penalties apply to every city in your empire for each additional city you have.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't border expansion slow down if you conquered or settled a lot of cities too quickly? So medium empires would grow their borders more quickly than cities in large empires and exert more pressure per city. This might be enough to make Loyalty interesting. (Also Free Cities to City-States as it is often suggested).

Plus we need higher diplomatic penalties for purchasing tiles. Are there any negatives to it atm? Didn't Leaders start complaining in Civ 5 whenever you bought tiles?
 
If it's stupid tradition then it's time to end it.



Barbarian cities in civ terms is an oxymoron - barbarians are assumed to be agressive tribal societies incapable of government and urban dwellings.

I'd like to see a civ game in which 'barb cities' do return but in a specific way: barbarians can occasionally spawn or coordinate large invadions targeting cities, and if they take and hold them for some time then they are uplifted to major civs... Or even just city states!

Them becoming new civs is practicaly impossible if we are going to be Leader Purists and not allow new civs with placeholder leaders to spawn in the game. But City States spawning from barbarian invasions would be easily doable - just give them type and ability randomly chosen from among CS not present on the map (name is either of conquered city or from random 'barbarian' pool).

If barbarians becoming cultural city states is too weird then they could always become military CS.

I wouldn't mind seeing a case where if a barbarian encampment isn't defeated within 50 (or 100 or random) turns from when it spawns, then it would become a free city with a special +20 loyalty bonus (so that it wouldn't be easy to flip on loyalty). That would probably be the closest to a barbarian city, and would be really cool to see on a terra map, since presumably a lot of those camps would turn. Thus when you go settle the new world, there'd be a mix of city-states, free cities, and barbarians roaming the lands. Otherwise I hope they have some AI logic so that on those terra maps, the barbarians and city-states don't fight, so that they end up with a mess of barbarian units when you actually find it.
 
Where would the barb cities pull their names from? It's probably not a good idea to use "lost to history" cultures or victims of colonialism like Civ 4 did.
 
Another filler 45 minutes ago on social media (twitter) which kind of rules out a patch drop for today. Patch update is unlikely to hit this week. Developers dont like to do overwork on the weekend if the patch would launch on friday.
 
Another filler 45 minutes ago on social media (twitter) which kind of rules out a patch drop for today. Patch update is unlikely to hit this week. Developers dont like to do overwork on the weekend if the patch would launch on friday.

And they still haven't promoted a livestream yet.

I'm not sure what they are waiting for. The QA looks like it is wrapped up.
 
For most of human history (in game terms, until about the Renaissance Era and later) there were very specific requirements to place a city anywhere:
1. Water. As in Potable Water. ALL cities were next to a river, lake, oasis or other source of fresh water. There were no exceptions. As cities grew too large for local water sources, they either invested major resources in providing water (Assyria, Babylon and possibly Harappans all had 'aqueducts' or similar structures long before the Romans) or the city stopped growing. Major Drought lasting too long caused cities to be abandoned completely.

Suggestions:
1. No city can grow without Water access. IF there isn't an Oasis tile, river, lake, OR non-desert/tundra Mountain tile (because Mountains have streams running off them if there is any rain/precipitation at all in the region) in the city radius, then any city growth should be severely constrained - as in Impossible.
BUT from the Late Ancient Era, say about Tech: Masonry, you can 'invest' in a Water Supply System - a primitive aqueduct, basin, qanat system - to bring water from a source 1 - 3 tiles away to the city site. To make this a Non-Universal Solution, it might be tied to having a source of Stone available (and worked) to build your water courses, dams, basins, etc.
One notable exception: Hattusa was, by design, situated away from large bodies of water. This made the Hittites relatively immune to retaliatory sieges as they went about attacking Egypt and Bablyon. They dug wells.

The game starts in the ancient era, so the reset of the game has to endure those traits. Local production rules through all eras, so the largest metropolis is the one that has a large stretch of farmbelt. Nonsensical, really.

Ideally, there would be some factor that would constrain the number of trade routes a city can send and receive, because those eventually can drive growth more than map factors.
 
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One notable exception: Hattusa was, by design, situated away from large bodies of water. This made the Hittites relatively immune to retaliatory sieges as they went about attacking Egypt and Bablyon. They dug wells.
I also wonder about rivers that aren't necessarily large enough to show up on a World Map.
 
Where would the barb cities pull their names from? It's probably not a good idea to use "lost to history" cultures or victims of colonialism like Civ 4 did.
Just use the same engine that generate rock band names! The Raging Turnips are coming to a town near you, and they ain't taking no prisoners!

But I don't want to see barbs spring up into free cities. Barbarians are nomads. They raid, not farm. I would like to see the effects of pillaging be represented in some way, such as by increasing the spawn rate.
 
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I also wonder about rivers that aren't necessarily large enough to show up on a World Map.
Sure. In general, we have to assume all kinds of stuff isn't represented on the world map.

For instance, we can't assume there's no copper, salt, or iron save for what for what spawns on the map. Those are just the dense concentrations.
 
I was hoping for something related to World Congress but changes to coastal cities and new templates a pretty nice imo.

Firaxis is doing a great job with the game.
 
So, for about the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the game, there should be places on the map that simply will not support a city. BUT these same places will support some settlement below city level: hunting and fur-trapping camps in the arctic, fishing villages even on arctic shores, trade routes across deserts - and peoples native to most regions that are quite at home there, if thin on the ground. That means the game desperately needs a Sub-City Settlement of some kind - an 'Outpost' if you will - that allows you to exploit resources and perhaps claim territory, but does not have all the 'benefits' of a City - like Districts, Buildings, and Population Growth.

Honestly that's why I'm hoping there's still a expansion in the works that adresses colonization in the form of settlements. even just frontier pushing and barb control...sometimes you don't want to park a unit in an area just for it not to spawn barbs, but maybe placing a military outpost could solve it. It could also lead to interesting distinctions between "claiming" territory with your outposts, and actually controlling it with a city.

I would absolutely love more dynamism with factions. Barbarians evolving into free cities evolving into city-states...

Barbarians feel so samey to me, they could actually benefit from events, (I know events are not everyone's cup of tea) but say you leave barbarians alone enough time, they could actually spawn a warlord and turn into a horde. making demands out of your civ, maybe even demanding a city (and turning it into a new CS with a new type). coupled with both the disaster and emergency systems it could be really interesting.
 
... Because, you know, water is water. You cannot inhabit, develop, upgrade or exploit water besides fish and oil. There are only so many stupid resources Firaxis can invent such as 'crabs' to make up for this.

This comment certainly proves to me how still desirable the next (last?) expansion features should minimally include --- formal Terra Forming systems.
Don't be shy to admit the mid-late gameplay structure would suddenly open up high & wide. It's as if the final conclusion to any strict official ruleset advantages *must* unlock every previous (empire & city growth, etc) patterns to provide us with a global chaos of futuristic proportions.

To me.. that's where the real extra fun should begin while the Victory cycles just take an indirect back seat (by OneMoreTurn magic-like enhancements?) to players' imagination.

Seasteads (not that stupid ya know!) ? Mountain Tunnels (speedy ground transit for sure) ? Randomized Future TechTree? Civ6 design concepts clearly are (and have been from Day-1) trying to tell us something.

I think we all are at the edge of a tall cliff overseeing the El-Dorado Valley of Golden treasures -- by all means, let's jump and trust fate!
 
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