Sex grooming cases spark racial tensions

We agree to a point, actually, I should have granted you that. Somethings can be done to change the situation there.
I have no earthly idea what they would be though, because I don't know enough about the system under which you live.

Like I mentioned, I don't think there is a higher rate of rape from Muslims in the US... so, have we actually done something right for once?!
 
There is more to it than just sitting around and waiting 100 years...

Raising awareness, rather than shushing it, raises societal pressure, and hopefully starts to bring about change.
Worst case, it potentially takes away the niave nature of some girl who might be the next victim...

As bad as things are for women in Egypt, for those in Afghanistan things are a great deal worse.

But there are hopeful signs of good sense even there. The power of soap is not to be underestimated in making people everywhere consider what they truly believe is acceptable rather than just accepting what "authority" tells them.

Afghan Soap Opera

As soon as we (as a species) can forget all this patriachal macho claptrap the better. It is so outdated. And causes nothing but misery wherever you look.

There's still a long long way to go.
 
We agree to a point, actually, I should have granted you that. Somethings can be done to change the situation there.
I have no earthly idea what they would be though, because I don't know enough about the system under which you live.

Like I mentioned, I don't think there is a higher rate of rape from Muslims in the US... so, have we actually done something right for once?!

Well I think a lot of the institutional issues you have with race have gone away, post-Rodney King. America as a whole is way more sensitive to race than other countries. For immigrants in particular, Americans have really strong institutional support for immigrants (esp. in immigrant-heavy parts of the country like NYC), and tend to cluster in areas where there are already lots of jobs (unlike in Rochdale in the UK), so there is (a) less hostility and (b) more prospects for immigrants.

There are, no doubt, institutional failures similar to the ones in the UK. I can't imagine your social welfare institutions are any better at protecting young girls than those in the UK. And I can't imagine your police are any better at prosecuting rape than they are in the UK. It would surprise me if the US, in general, has less of a problem with raping young girls than the UK does; it just so happens that the perpetrators of that crime aren't as easily categorised as Muslim immigrants are in the situation in Rochdale. (Or in Sweden, since people are talking about that, too.) I'm sure France and Russia have problems with rape, and that they are caused by similar institutional failures that are being discussed in Rochdale, it just so happens that the people raping young girls there aren't Muslim either. So I don't think it's so much that the US has "got it right" (other than providing support for immigrants, which is great), but rather that the institutional problems are exploited by a different set of people. Think of a typical American pimp (e.g. the guys in Taxi Driver): those are your sex groomers.

Either way, the point is that grooming of young girls for sex and prostitution happens because of institutional failures that can be addressed. It may involve Muslim immigrants, or it may involve black people, or unemployed people, or army officers, or teachers, or priests, or charity workers, or whatever. Point is, there's nothing about these groups in particular that is the problem, or that can be addressed; it's the institutional failures that are the problem, and the institutional failures that we can address.
 
Mise, does your argument boil down to: individual's choices are governed by the society and instituitions the individual is in and not by the will of the individual? That sounds like a dangerous road to go down.
 
Mise, does your argument boil down to: individual's choices are governed by the society and instituitions the individual is in and not by the will of the individual?
Of course not. I'm not talking about individuals at all. You're not talking about individuals either - if you were, you would be making a "bad apples" argument that, while equally unsatisfactory, is much less problematic from a policy perspective. Individual choices are clearly made by an individual, and ought to be punished individually. This seems completely at odds with the arguments that have been made so far -- that Muslims are collectively "more rapey" than Christians/Britons/Westerners/whatever. You're talking about entire groups of people, and about the culture that they originate from: precisely not the individuals in question, so it seems weird that you would criticise me on the basis that I am not giving enough shrift to the role of individual choice.

If we're just talking about individual actions and our response to those actions, then we ought to condemn those rapists as individuals, and punish them individually as rapists. But so far everyone's been talking about culture, and if we're talking about culture, we have to ask ourselves what creates a culture that allows rape with impunity. Power structures and institutional failures are the answer, and that's where we should be focusing our efforts.
 
The bigotry of this thread has gone beyond ugly. Closing it would be adviced.

So because people dont agree with you... they should be silenced.

As I said before there are different kinds of muslims in Europe and I also already said that unreligious muslims like Tatars or Bosniaks dont share the same misogynistic ideology as muslims from more religious countries. Muslim man can also be pretty unreligious, but if he has been brought up in religious Muslim country he shares the misogynistic views about women. There is of course also the religious hate that some muslims feel against people of other faiths or atheists. They feel that making a crime against a non-muslim is not really a crime at all.

There is a problem in Europe with muslim men who dont respect women and their choice to wear what they want, date who they want and make their own decisions. If you want you can of course pretend that honor killings and rape statistics are not reality.
 
Muslims have far more issues with others, be they white, asian, african or otherwise. Borders of islam are bloody and fraught with conflicts. I don't care what they say, I think their actions prove them lacking in many ways.

By the way, I dated a muslim/arab girl once and her ex-boyfriend started something with me saying she is 'his'. I can only tell you I was acquitted at the end, and that family is now one idiot short, in terms of relations of course, after apologizing profusely to me for their 'son's behavior. A show of force is definitely something they understand better than good-intentioned gesture, lucky I grew up in a culture far more hierarchal than theirs ^^
 
you..killed him?

I wish. But no, hence the qualifier at the end you missed "in terms of relations" as in they pretty much disavowed him. I think that kid was a pain to his parents from the beginning, and that was pretty much the last straw.

Traitorfish: Was that directed towards me? I find it amusing when people resort to self-comforting phrases when I give comments that rub their soft weak spots :)

Islam's borders ARE bloody. From russia to europe, to africa with its history of arab slavery that began hundreds of years before western colonial times, india with the recent mumbai attacks, south east asia with its nascent terrorism problems, china and the uyghrs (somewhat understandable there but still part of the pattern), and of course, 9/11.

It's really hard to find a particular group that seems to have more problem with pretty much anyone and even more often each other (sunnie vs. shiites for the obvious). Kinda hard to make excuses for them. Even the most corrupt christian institutions could at least say they never poisoned a goddamn water well because their girls were getting education, or pouring acid on their faces. Not to mention muslim world isn't so keen on condemning their 'wrong brothers' with their actions instead of their lips...really contrasts with modern christian ones where even the most cynical has to realize they turned a better leaf than in the past.
 
Islam's borders ARE bloody. From russia to europe, to africa with its history of arab slavery that began hundreds of years before western colonial times, india with the recent mumbai attacks, south east asia with its nascent terrorism problems, china and the uyghrs (somewhat understandable there but still part of the pattern), and of course, 9/11.

It's really hard to find a particular group that seems to have more problem with pretty much anyone and even more often each other (sunnie vs. shiites for the obvious). Kinda hard to make excuses for them. Even the most corrupt christian institutions could at least say they never poisoned a goddamn water well because their girls were getting education, or pouring acid on their faces. Not to mention muslim world isn't so keen on condemning their 'wrong brothers' with their actions instead of their lips...really contrasts with modern christian ones where even the most cynical has to realize they turned a better leaf than in the past.
Last edited by overkill9; Jul 17, 2012 at 10:34 PM.

Amen Brother.
Somehow leftists in our day and age think it's acceptable to defend misorgynist, xenophobic, homophobic, violent ideas when they deriviate from outside the West. It is like those leftists in the 20s and 30s who went over to the USSR and praised it, despite the starvation in Ukraine..
 
overkill9 said:
south east asia with its nascent terrorism problems
Nascent?
 
Amen Brother.
Somehow leftists in our day and age think it's acceptable to defend misorgynist, xenophobic, homophobic, violent ideas when they deriviate from outside the West. It is like those leftists in the 20s and 30s who went over to the USSR and praised it, despite the starvation in Ukraine..

The key to understanding modern 'progressivism' is that it is not really an ideology or well-thought out wisdom of the enlightened, as some laughably naive ones like to pretend while trying to put on childish airs that real progressives of the centuries past would find amusing. It is a form of reactionary tantrum-like actions that is the result of violent end and failures of extreme right-wing ideology that resulted in destruction of europe and causing the most deadly war in human history. You can see the almost allergic, hysterical reaction to anything remotely smelling right-wing in Europe as a proof of this.

While one should never forget the mistakes of war, the current modern day reactionaries have taken this to the extent where they no longer see anything wrong with portraying one side as epitome of evil and anything opposing it is better, while reality and people's nature is much more nuanced and complex than such innocent black and white theory. Irony is definitely not lost here. Some of the principles that characterize right-wing ideologies, such as harsh hierarchal discipline, fear-inducing dangers, and other such 'evil' things are a necessary harsh part of life which one must not run from, but confronted and dominated or swallowed whole so that one emerges stronger from it. You can never be stronger or grow by rejecting your problems, but only by completely getting it to the point it becomes as much of a problem as walking. By blindly rejecting anything that doesn't smell like sunshines and rainbows, relying on 'what feels good' as if life is a goddamn disney movie for kids or alice in the goddamn wonderland, you give rise to modern day liberalism that is scorned by its enemies, and shunned by realists, and collapses in the face of anything remotely resembling a threat from those that don't play by the same rules as the 'enlightened' ones do.

More importantly, the motivation that drives many modern 'liberals' is using it as a ideological and mental comforter to assure them that their 'fair' and 'mature' approach, which is actually nothing more than an excuse for trying to drive anything that makes them feel insecure or uncomfortable out by labeling it 'evil' and 'fascist'. More to the point, they are eager to use this as a cudgel against their own neighbors, while attempting to appear 'enlightened' in comparison by welcoming others who clutch their stomachs laughing at the utter ignorance and dream-like naivte of these people trying to appear better than their neighbors by being 'pals' with them. There is a reason why likes of Julian Assange is seen as a complete joke in many parts of non-western world, although they are of course in public encouraging him because he serves as a useful tool for irritating their perceived enemies. I wonder if Julian Assange should be seen as a pinnacle of morality, or a coward who likes to poke at those he believes are easier ideological targets, but unable to go after russia or china or even iran because they not only have the innate fortitude to laugh at some albino fool pretending to play the hero, but doing it in a way that showcases his utter inability to face those who have more pride, confidence and certainty other than the west that continuously battles with identity and standards wrecked in the legacy of ww2?

World War 2 for europe especially was a complete disaster on more ways than one, from which it has not yet fully recovered. Other nations like china, russia, or US could point directly to an external enemy and say, "We are fighting against THEM, they are at fault", without compromising their position and actually uniting their people closer together. Europe could do none of these things - lead by a foolish dictator whose sole role in history seemed to have been causing the downfall of europe by emphasizing its weakness in favor of strength (while confusing one for another), the west was forced to look only at its faults, while seemingly overwhelming war waged with most advanced technology world had seen up to that point, seemed to evidence that everything they believed in as strength was wrong (this wasn't true - only they confused the two with the shock of war). Other nations could point to outside enemies when their country was burned, but europe could not. The fundamental problem lies in the fact that europe was forced to look only at its relatively small faults, while other nations could emphasize their relatively smaller advantages in favor of their own faults which were greater than europe's by the nature of 'fighting against itself vs. an external enemy'.

Even considering how badly europe was wrecked by ww2, this cowardly and insipid ideological suicide of people who are taught to believe toughness is evil, what feels bad for them is bad, and life is about following your feelings :lol: must be acknowledged as utter fantasy and reactionary nonsense. What life requires is not right and wrong based on your feelings and what comforts you - it's the strength to face anything with willingness to master them to bring about a better result.
 
Amen Brother.
Somehow leftists in our day and age think it's acceptable to defend misorgynist, xenophobic, homophobic, violent ideas when they deriviate from outside the West. It is like those leftists in the 20s and 30s who went over to the USSR and praised it, despite the starvation in Ukraine..

Keep in mind, some of us do think leftists who defend Islam are pathetic.
 
...Not to mention muslim world isn't so keen on condemning their 'wrong brothers' with their actions instead of their lips...really contrasts with modern christian ones where even the most cynical has to realize they turned a better leaf than in the past.
What complete and total nonsense. Aren't you confusing them with those who have taken the Republican loyalty oath, as well as those who rationalize and defend atrocities committed by the Israeli government no matter what they do?
 
What complete and total nonsense. Aren't you confusing them with those who have taken the Republican loyalty oath, as well as those who rationalize and defend atrocities committed by the Israeli government no matter what they do?

I am sure you would love to rationalize anything islam does just to one up the 'man' no? :lol:

Even when comparing the two, it's difficult to put them at the same level as islam whose atrocities dates back a thousand years at least, covering the vast swath of the world. Majority of burden of guilt is on them, and they better clean up their own act before flinging hypocritical criticism left and right.

Besides, they do love over emphasizing faults of their enemies while white washing their own, or knowingly put their civilians in harm's way to conveniently claim civilian casualties. Everyone may do it to an extent, but the overall evidence of conflicts raging across the world in borders of islam really gives no room to any excuse.

People always try to be little contrarians, so feel free to defend your enemies who does not play your rules.
 
I am sure you would love to rationalize anything islam does just to one up the 'man' no? :lol:
I'm sure you would love to rationalize any of your absurd opinions by attacking the "man" instead of discussing the topic, as you just tried to do.

I'm not trying to "compare" the two. I am merely pointing out how hypocritical it is to vilify one while typically ignoring quite similar attitudes by so many who are not Muslim. Claiming that Muslims do little to criticize terrorism is a characteristic of many of those who hate them by claiming they support terrorism when they clearly do just the opposite since it is forbidden by their religion.

By far the most victims of "terrorist" attacks against our society have been caused by Christians in the form of the KKK and other similar white supremacist groups.
 
I'm sure you would love to rationalize any of your absurd opinions by attacking the "man" instead of discussing the topic, as you just tried to do. No?

I'm not trying to "compare" the two. I am merely pointing out how hypocritical it is to vilify one while typically ignoring quite similar attitudes by many Republicans and Israelis. It is a characteristic of many of those who hate Muslims by claiming they support terrorism when they clearly do just the opposite, since it is forbidden by their religion.

By far the most victims of "terrorist" attacks against our society have been caused by Christians in the form of the KKK and other similar white supremacist groups.

Please don't paraphrase my words thinking it is somehow a good comeback - it smacks of amateur tendencies. :)

I find it amusing how you derived I 'ignored' anything. I basically acknowledged similar things can happen with both sides of the conflict, yet your bias allows you to try to put words in other people's statements? The only hypocritical one is you, as you have just proven.

Also, I don't recall that most of those terrorist attacks were aimed at bringing down:lol: US, or caused 2000 plus casualties in one go. Your attempt at being a contrarian failed with your own statements wildly spouting words you claim I said where I never did. Please don't try to trip over your own feet while frothing at the mouth at your 'perceived' prejudice of another man.

Anyone can have opinions or look things up. Parroting events or arguments actually, contrary to popular opinion, does not give you any right to pass judgement of supposed thought of others as you have done without first showing your position is not even worse in being guilty of the same things, and more importantly you yourself is not being same the way your argument basically kills itself as you just showed us.
 
Your preconceived notions and biases are quite clear in the few posts you have made in the past few hours. I don't have to put words into your mouth because you make them so obvious.

Again, terrorism is no more condoned by them as it is by the vast majority of Christians who openly condemned similar acts by the KKK in the past. To claim they do shows you really know nothing about Islam or Muslims.
 
Top Bottom