SG Lurkers, ready?

[Luv_Muffin]

I hear what you're saying about Gao. Less risk with keeping our wonders well within our own borders. It would totally bite if some clown like Alex walked in and stole our wonders because our military couldn't punch it's way out of a wet paper bag.

I have tended to use my culture like an offensive weapon. Plant my wonders in cities I can't afford to lose anyway (strategic resource cities). I'd stack my troops near these cities anyway's, so they can defend both the resource and my wonders, without making me produce twice the amount of units to do both jobs. And the cultural output is likely to push back other civ's borders with it's relentless pressure. A non-military way to wage a "velvet war" keeping within our SG's rules.

With a wonder city in Djenne, we will influence the centre, if we use Kumbi, we influence the west. But if we use Goa, we stand less of a chance of losing our important cities in a surprise attack. Hmmm, this one's a head scratcher.
You're the boss. Maybe the team has opinions or thoughts on this matter.
I'm fine either way. Once we decide, I'm more than happy to make it happen.
And Blackluck, thx for the info about the Globe Theatre.
Read about it now, G-Theatre and N-Epic would be nice!

 

[Blackluck]

While I doubt we'd be in danger of losing either Kumbi or Gao, Gao would not be subjected to pillaging. I do the same thing as you LM with culture; with every game I play, in fact (I just can't help myself, really.) However, even though I've had superior units due to tech leads, lesser troops with four or five promotations (as the aggressive Civs tend to have) can wreak havoc pillaging. Can't take them in the open, can only win defending. This allows a neutral, financial Civ (such as the Incas) to take off with the tech lead .. and this because a leading city keeps losing terrain improvements. Pillaging is a powerful tool in Civ IV, and despite from the AI, they can use pillaging quite effectively.

I'd like to take a step back here for a moment, though, and ponder our victory condition.

First, our varient of not declaring war should stand. I've read many a strategy thread where waging war on Prince+ is required for victory. Clearly, I disagree. That said, Lurker II sentiment steered us towards a culture victory, but we've not focused on that; instead, we've been preparing for an invasion. Rightly so, as we can't win if we get whacked.

However, I'm all about adapting to the situation. Can we start cranking the culture? We're in a much better position now then when we started. Is it too late? If the team would rather pursue a different avenue toward victory, I'm open to that ... I'd just like us to see that end through without 'resorting' to war. Understand, I have nothing against that playstyle; I just happen to think it's not the only choice. In fact, the 'velvet' glove is quite the apt description. That's exactly what I'm aiming for here.

As an aside, World Wonders are not required for culture. National wonders and concentration of great people/multiple religious buildings seem key to me. Even turning off research in favor of culture is not neccessary, IMO.

One more thing! I'm not the boss here! I'm merely the facilitator for prompting Lurkers to begin a SG!

 

[Luv_Muffin]

One more thing! I'm not the boss here! I'm merely the facilitator for prompting Lurkers to begin a SG!

Sir, yes sir.

Got it, you are NOT (*wink wink*) the boss! They'll never break me, sir.

*******************​

Still no word from Greggo?

Maybe he was ambushed by elves or something.
Darn you Santa, I'm so onto you and your tricks!

 

[Blackluck]

If Greggo doesn't show up in the next few hours, we'll put him on a skip (it'll be 48 hours) and I'll take the turn.

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Sounds good. I think the holidays got him.
Let's keep this puppy rolling. (Mixed metaphor I know, but I'm a rebel)

 

[Blackluck]

Got it. Should have the turn up in a bit.

 

[Blackluck]

Turn 0: 1130 AD
Change Angle to work Horses instead of Nagasaki. Maybe the wrong move, but I'd rather have Angle turn into a strong city and risk losing craptastic Naggy.
MM Gao to work coastal cities, gain 1 gpt.
MM Shaggy to coast, gain 1 gpt. Growth in one turn.
Switch Kumbi from Horse archer to library.
Trade fur to Saladin for Silk.
We running barbarism civ. Switch to Vassalage.
We're now not losing any gold.

Turn 1: 1135
Grr.

Ok, Nappy, only because you're gonna have to take out ... someone ... soon.

Theatre done in Nagasaki. Only one longbow for a defender; however, any decent unit takes too long to build, I choose a Jewish temple instead. We'll send another defender from Angle.

Going to chop Chicken Itzes in Djenne, so workers chop.

Turn 2: 1140:
Walata completes skirmisher, starts on a temple for some badly needed culture
Work chops woods along river for temple growth.
Missionary moves to scout the Incas.
Sell drama to Saladin and Incas for 70 gp.
We're losing 3 gpt.

Turn 3: 1145:
Timbuktu starts on a light house; We're still losing money. this will let us work the coastal squares for a bit.
Angle completes longbow, starts on a barracks (front line city.)
Send Longbow to Nagasaki.

Turn 4: 1150
Toku wants us to cancel our deals with Hatty.
What deals do we have with her??
Ok, sure.
Gao completes Harbor, starts on Library.
Missionary scouts Incas.

Turn 5: 1155
Where's he going?

Workers chop.
Shaggy starts on Library for culture.

Turn 6: 1160
Civil service done.
Switch to Bureaucracy. Now making money.
Trade furs to Incas for + 3 gpt.
Choose Philosophy for Liberalism.
Can't get theology from anyone.
Chicken Itzes done. (screen shot corrupt.)
Start Theatre (so the Globe Theatre can be started; we're 4/7)


Turn 7: 1165:
Workers work, etc
A brief visit to the top:

Turn 8:
Begin farm at Djennes so it can grow.
Library begins at Kumbi.
Sigh:

Turn 9:
Oops.

Irrigation project to Shaggy begins
Saladin declares war on Hatty.

Turn 10:
Workers work.
Libraries and theatres are the order of the day.
We're falling behind in the tech race; the Incas are smoking us.
At least we're now making money.
Philosophy may have been a mistake.
National epic can now be build.
We need to start spreading our second Judiasm to all our town.

Oh yeah, somewhere along the line I traded Civil Service to the Incas for Machinery and gold.

Summary:
Worked on economy ... Libraries are being built everywhere. Shaggy and Walata need culture. Incas are gaining tech lead very quickly.
We should pick a high food city, build National Epic/Globe Theatre there.
I do not think we are in danger of attack any time soon.
I could be wrong.

The save:
View attachment 108100

Turn order:
Blackluck -- Done
Liquidated Up
Luv_Muffin On deck
Scowler -- finis
Percinho -- skip
Sir Toma -- on hold
Greggo -- Skip

Oh yeah: We now have 350 some odd gold in the treasury, and we're making 16 gpt.

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Yay! New turn for me to over analyze! Sweet.

So Nappy joined the Budhist connection, huh? After all the good times we had? I wonder why?
Speculation, but either he is;
* thinking of attacking us or Toku. Easier chance taking us on, imo.
* wanting to improve relations/avoid a fight with monty and/or cyrus.

Libraries do a nice job, don't they? Culture and research, just when we need both. Quite happy to hear that we finished that wonder in Djenne! I'm looking for good things to happen, now that Djenne is up and running and a cultural behemoth in training.

I have no idea what is going through Saladin's head, putting Anjar right next to Gao. That city has a snowballs chance making it to size three before it becomes another cultural casualty to our velvet war machine. Still have hopes of taking Khurasan with similar methods, but that would park us as a neighbor to Alex.

Bleh!

We got machinery too? Then we should be able to grab banking soon.
As a financial civ, banking is our thing. Guilds then banking. Money problems will be a thing of the past.
Just my two cents

Did BlackLuck actually, no he couldn't have... it's true!

1st Place, fellow babies. Woot!

Edit:
Libraries: +2 culture, +25% science
Monastaries: +2 culture, +10% research (*nice! Get more of these*)
Temples: +1 culture
Cathedrals: +50% culture
Castles: +1 culture (+50% bonus defense too)

 

[Blackluck]

We slid back to third at the end of my turns.

Liq, Timbuktu and Angle need to be MM'd (cottage tiles worked in both towns; during the money woes I switched off briefly in Timbuktu to the coast. Not sure when Angle switched off.)

Philosophy is due in 5. Would it be worth it to change to guilds for banking?
Philo+paper=Liberalism, I think (and a free tech.)

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Just pointing out that Paper requires Civil Service and Theology.
Do we even have Theology? Most of the other AI's did, on my turn, but weren't budging from blocking me from trading for it. Darn Budhists.

But, I am not a fan of changing gears all the time either. We should decide a course of action, and follow it to the bitter end most times. I like Philosophy, chicks dig it when you talk about the meaning of life. Maybe we should just finish it, and then see how long it will take for Theology and Paper.

If we somehow manage to get it, what free tech will we get? Will getting guilds be a waste? Need guilds before banking. How about Nationalism, Education maybe? We are staring at a deadline coming up for building monestaries (scientific method is around the corner), and not all of our towns are hindu yet. (losing out on culture and research boost). We could build two in each city (with Judiasm), but our military needs funding, now! (We are the mighty mali, not the canadian civ) I'd also like to swarm a civ with missionaries, and try to convert a budhist empire too. They have what, 43% of the worlds population doing budhist stuff? Way too much, want more Hindus, imo. Scary statistic.

We have a lot of things to work on.

 

[Blackluck]

Ah, thanks for the clarification L_M.

AI is willing to trade Theology now, I just couldn't swing a decent deal for it.

Hatty is up philo, music and theology, but she won't talk to us. Inca are up optics and guilds. The AI appear to be trading among themselves, as within a turn or two the Inca suddenly had those techs.

If we did get a free tech, I'd probably pick Nationalism (for the Taj Mahal and a golden age.) The Inca are pleased with us despite the religion difference.

Agreed on getting monastaries everywhere before scientic method; we'll have time to spread Hindu around during/after.

If we need military, I'd pick a town (Pigtown?) to produce them, and start replacing our outdated units; we can't afford to upgrade them. Our border towns have decent garrisons; no one hates us (yet). Toku waffles between cautious and pleased. Napolean going buddhist is worrisome, although I think he's going after the north. I think we are productive enough that should we hear the horns of doom, we can switch to full bore military production and counter attack effectively.

 

[Liquidated]

ug ok Liq is alive sort of.

between holidays and people in california unable to drive safely in rain..... liq just wants to lie comatose for a few days...

I'll get to this game tonight, skip Liq if next up is set and raring to go, otherswise np!!

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Luv_Muffin]

I took a peek at our current situation, and took some screenshots. I hope this will assist Liq in making up his mind before he starts his turn tonight.

* I don't know why research was at 70%, after we got cash for trading a tech.
Bump up research back to 80%, and shave off some turns. We are never going to catch up with less spending.
* Djenne is now pumping out 14 culture, before the wonder it was 5. Sweet.

Interesting, I didn't even know that he heard about Hinduism, and he's willing to convert?
* What have we done to this budhist, to make him so friendly? I think he'll charge us an arm and a leg to convert though, since we have no tech to offer instead. Too bad, it would have been nice. Would have liked to have a new hindu partner.

* Current state of affairs.
* Population is 8th place? There is no reason for this. I looked at the map, lots of cottages, but I think we have more fur tiles than farms. What really blew me away was that having so few farms, so many of them were not being used in favor of cottages! Some cities have more cottages than they can work, not enough people in the city to work all the tile improvements.
* Okay, I understand why they seem like a good idea (cash w/cottages), but without people being born to actually work the cottage it is a useless improvement. More people means we may actually make our own specialists too. Our biggest cities are barely larger than Toku's border cities, almost half the size of the AI's cities.
We need population in a bad way.
* 3rd in land mass, 8th in population? This is a big no-no. Let the baby making commence.
* You can tweak most cities to grow without slowing their production of units, but I'd put the new population on another food tile. We can't afford to work cottages if it means our cities stagnate. I'd max food on our wonder cities until they grow to at least size 10, then maybe think about doing something else. We are falling too far behind, too fast.

* Foreign Affairs, Hatty is ticked at us, won't even talk to us? What did we do?

* World Map (so far) *EDIT: city production has been played with. When you load the game, look at every city and get it growing. I should have taken my screens before I MM'd some cities to see what I could do.
* Notice, 1 turn faster for phil if we accept losing 5 coins per turn? Get phil in 4, lose 20(+) gold, we can afford that. Theology in 5.
* Where has our galley gone? Somebody explored a bit, but I didn't find the galley, but honestly didn't search that hard. (Just wanted some screens really)

I was really surprised when I saw the screens. I don't know if we will be able to snag the free tech either, other civs are closer to getting it than us.

Feel free to discuss.

 

[Blackluck]

L_M,

I didn't get the big boost in GPT until the end of my turn, so I didn't switch the science slider.

There are a lot of cottages; Djenne is ready for farms (I cleared out quite a few forests (three) to ensure we would get the wonder; I hate getting beat to a wonder by a few turns. )


During my turn set, I was trying to road up the border towns to the core (both for irrigation and for a military net.) The irrigation project to Shaggy is underway; Kumbei needs farms. Nagy is irrigating it's flood plain, which should let Angel use all it's tiles (it needs some worker love; Wanata (sp) is now up to speed so one of those workers can be sent south.)

Hatty is pissed because:
Toku wants us to cancel our deals with Hatty.
What deals do we have with her??
Ok, sure.
Gao completes Harbor, starts on Library.
Missionary scouts Incas.
***
I also lost an entry in my log; I spread Hindu to an Inca town. He was the only one I could get any sort of equitable deal with. Even Napolean, with all + modifiers refuses any kind of tech deals. He's a lousy ally.

So far as I can tell, Hatty is the only one with Philo, and no one likes her. We can use that and paper I think to get guilds, and maybe optics.

As you can see from the build order, we were in dire need of libraries. I'm hoping as the farms come online and the libraries get completed we'll see a nice jump in research.

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Yeah, I know Blackluck. I wasn't finger pointing at you, or anyone in particular.
I just was blown away by the situation we find ourselves in now.

For example, at Angle, I chopped a forest and had started on building a farm due east of the city.
Somebody had to have stopped that order, to put a cottage there instead.
Angle needs to steal the cows from Nagasaki, or else it stagnates or starves. It's not a choice, it is a decision forced on us because the farms being built were changed into cottages that can't feed us. We currently cannot work the fur resource, and if we stop stealing naggy's cows, we starve. Not a farm to be found in the region.

I also was building a farm south of Djenne (which was later cancled), and it is now a cottage. Djenne is currently stagnant. In order to grow, we'd have to strip it of every mined tile, and then some. Not a single farm was made in our second city, ever. It wasn't a problem at the time, but since that farm has never been replaced, our second city is going to be a middlesized city for quite some time.

I also think it must be a different playstyle we all have. The cottages should not be getting put next to rivers, until all the river tiles you need have been farmed (with exceptions of course). We can't start a farm unless we have water (river is a good source). Cottages can be built just about anywhere. Build them on grassland, then at least working them won't drop our city into starvation mode, but we get the coin and never have to stop working it.

Stop it with the cottages! I don't think we need to build another cottage until sometime after plastics are discovered. Somebody is addicted to cottage building. Seriously. If we can't afford to work it, why build them?

Use the workers to build things that our cities need or can actually work. Just because you build a cottage, doesn't mean our revenue automatically goes up. And if our workers are building things that we can't possibly use (or else starve), then the build something else, somewhere else.

* Good idea dragging farms to shaggy, but by the time you get there, all our barbarian cities (except naggy) will be larger than our Djenne (our #2 city!)
WTH?

On the other hand, at least I figured out what the anvil was that has been dragging us down. Lack of people (a very important resource too). You need people, if you want to tax someone. Wish I had looked a little deeper, sooner.
Huge amount of work for us to do now, I hope liq has some tricks up his sleeve.

Photo guide to terrain, improvements, and city placement.
The Complete Guide to Terrain, Improvements, Resources, and City Placement (v.2)

 

[Liquidated]

eh yeah I hope liq has... er wait

ok so let me get this straight... muf wants more cottages and needs me to whip djenne because it has too many people...

Check!

I have raids in an hour and well all my SG's came up at the same time so I took this one last this time... I need a new pc to run eq and civ same time. will study this thread though while staring at some giant bat that's kicking my bard ass tho!!!!!!

if the bat is the size of a small building, you know it kicks ass.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Luv_Muffin]

eh yeah I hope liq has... er wait

ok so let me get this straight... muf wants more cottages and needs me to whip djenne because it has too many people...

Check!

That's it. Liq is going down!

LMAO! You are too funny.
I'm in serious need of some nog.

Hope to catch your post later tonight. Mrs. Muffin is going to feed me supper, calm me down and we'll snuggle and watch a movie.

Heh heh. *just to make you all squirm*

Giant bats? What on earth are you doing with giant bats on your computer?

 

[Liquidated]

preflight... ok let see what all liq see's before he cheats and looks at Generalisimo LeMuf has to say.


hmm 335 in bank +18 gold and 70 science........ ya

ok tweaked what I could food wise.. sigh. lot of worker work.

[1]1185 AD
timbuk gets a theatre... go to worker in 4.. we need a few workers.

[2]1190 AD
dj pops a missonary start on a jud monestary.
Gao pops a library... go theatre for the push on that saladin town.

all farms all the time.

[3]1195 AD
timbuk gets jud.

[4]1200 AD
peeps want to trade theology for our civil... oh yes I need 30 gold that bad, eff off.

philo comes in start on guilds in 9, can change to paci as well. fiure we have a ton of infra structure still to build so skip paci until we have a bonifide GP factory on our hands.

errr need a ton of workers.

[5]1205 AD
timbuk builds a warrior go for a grainery.

did I mention we need a ton of workers?

[6]1210 AD
kumbi builds a camel archer, I go for a theatre.

[7]1215 AD
jud monest done go for hindu monest, I'd build workers cept dj needs people.

[8]1220 AD
omg dj grew to size 10
saladin asks us to go to war with hatty... um no.
Gao starts on a worker.

[9]1225 AD
saladin cancels open borders... hmmm this is not so good.
timbuk starts a maceman

cyrus comes looking to trade optics and 450 gold for philo I take it as we can use the gold.

I go to 90% reasearch for -32 gold... 728 in bank and sped up guilds one turn to 3 turns... we want knights.

[10]1230 AD
still no war =p pigpen finishs library...go for a barracks.

ok well Liq didn;t do anything earth shattering, speeding up the techs we need to defend ourselves. and laid down a ton of farms.

really nothing worth mentioning screen shot wise anjar is about same squeezed in I think maybe a bit smaller but it's 100% arab still.

we can place research back to 80% after guilds, until then tho, we need knights and bad.


keep in mind as a cultural win we are stopping tech around 1600. that means only the most needed techs like cav or rifling, liberalism constitution etc.

imo dj might make our best gp factory... load up on farms and go to caste for the artists... we need MASS worker crap done so surf city for sure.

gear up some modern units for possible conflict with saladin.

I'll let muf over anal-ize this one lol liq needs like some sleep or something.


Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Blackluck]

I had a culture win (on noble, granted) where I didn't turn down science until way late:

In that game, I had founded 5/7 religions. I wasn't even actively trying for a cultural win; had I been more proactive, i.e., spread my religion more actively, just to my own empire, I would have had the victory earlier than the 1900ish date I did win. I also got a lot of great people (artists) who I joined to cities (vs culture bombs) but that started very early in the game (much earlier than our current one.)

In this game, I honestly don't think we have a shot in **** gaining a cultural win. Not only are we not generating great people, we're not generating any ga's. We don't have any cathedral's built; Liberalism was suppose to get us Nationalism for the Taj Mahal (not only for a golden age but for its culture and great artist points) but since we now went guilds that gambit is pretty much lost.

I've learned here for a successful SG, strong communication and leadership is crucial. As L_M has pointed out, our worker choices have been less than stellar; I'm often confused with our tech choices. It's as if we' ve been playing little chunks of our own game, ten turns at a time. It's a learning experience, to be sure.

I think we need to rethink our victory condition; I may be wrong about a culture win, but it doesn't look possible to me. I think a diplomatic win might be our best bet, or, we can go the predictable domination win.

 

[Scowler]

I've learned here for a successful SG, strong communication and leadership is crucial. As L_M has pointed out, our worker choices have been less than stellar; I'm often confused with our tech choices. It's as if we' ve been playing little chunks of our own game, ten turns at a time. It's a learning experience, to be sure.

Isn't that the whole point? Perhaps I'm being naive as a succession game novice, but surely the object isn't just (or even primarily) to win, but rather to explore different options, especially in a game that has been only recently released, meaning that we have to rethink tactics that might have been successful in previous iterations - and definitely in a game that has been deliberately tweaked so that there is never one correct way of winning.

The fact that each of us brings our own style can be an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on how you choose to look at it. If the worker or tech choices "confuse" you, then it is up to you to question those choices at the time and present your alternatives and reasoning. I don't think any of us will object to criticism, provided it is handled in a constructive manner. Again, we come to the game with different levels of experience and different preconceptions; some are more vocal and articulate than the others. The point is that no single person is better than the rest, and there doesn't have to be a leader (though it can be helpful if one person is vastly more experienced or wants to moderate a particular variant), but if we embrace our differences rather than worry about them I see no reason why we cannot achieve some kind of synergy.

Regarding cottages, I suspect that the one that appeared at Djenne is probably down to me. If I remember rightly, I halted work on the farm so that I could send the worker to do something more urgent elsewhere, but I must have misclicked when I brought him back - sorry.

EDIT: Just so that this post isn't entirely negative, I'd also like to say how useful Luv_Muffin's comments and analyses have been - please continue!