SGOTM 02 - Geezers

klarius · Aug 14, 2006

Good eyes

. I didn't notice the borders.
But it's not really a new city, it's already there in the 2320 save. Trippstowe must have had a warrior up there, while the city was already there, otherwise we would not know.

And yes, that jungle city is really of no concern. Nice that it's preventing barbs from the north. We for sure don't want to capture it before we could do something with the resources. As long as Izzy is settling jungle towns w/o production that's fine with me.

Sam_Yeager · Aug 14, 2006

Ok, this is a 'got it' but I probably won't finish until tomorrow.

Sam_Yeager · Aug 15, 2006

1540 BC - 1090 BC
Tokyo has been founded on the left hand island. In retrospect I probably should have founded it on the stone instead. My Tokyo production choices were rather poor.

I started a worker and then realised we didn't have Animal Husbandry yet. Then I started a work boat but it will take ages to complete. Thinking about it now I probably should have just started an archer and left it at that. Sorry guys.

As far as the rest of builds go Osaka now has an axeman and two swordmen. The trees north of Osaka have been pre-chopped. I've selected an obelisk next to try and expand the city. This can be changed if desired and no hammers have been committed to it yet. Kyoto rushed the galley as suggested and is making good progress on the second settler

On the technology front we now know Mysticism and Meditation. Priesthood is being researched.

Diplomatically Izzy adopted Slavery in 1540 BC and someone has built Stonehenge.

Militarily the Barbs have been active. We met the first barb archer in 1300 BC.

The tally for the turn is 12 warriors and two archers. Turn log below for those interested.

Spoiler :

Game File

Thrallia · Aug 15, 2006

I'm back from vacation guys, and it looks like just in time

I've kept up with the discussion, and will wait a few hours for some team wool-gathering before I pick it up.

Sam_Yeager · Aug 15, 2006

Thrallia said:
I've kept up with the discussion, and will wait a few hours for some team wool-gathering before I pick it up.

Hmm... Seems a bit quiet on the comments front. Perhaps it might be worth delaying until we get some comments. It's not as though we're pushed for time.

Thrallia · Aug 15, 2006

I think we need some culture in Osaka, but think that if we are definitely building the palace there as soon as we have 4 cities, then it makes more sense to build a worker or settler, or more military until the 4th city is established and then just use the palace to generate the culture. As we don't have AH yet, and I don't believe we have agriculture yet either, it doesn't make as much sense to expand now as it does to just wait a little bit.

As for some procedural things...how many turns should I play when I take the save, and what is the url I upload it to? I seem to have lost it somewhere.

Sam_Yeager · Aug 15, 2006

Thrallia said:
I think we need some culture in Osaka, but think that if we are definitely building the palace there as soon as we have 4 cities, then it makes more sense to build a worker or settler, or more military until the 4th city is established and then just use the palace to generate the culture. As we don't have AH yet, and I don't believe we have agriculture yet either, it doesn't make as much sense to expand now as it does to just wait a little bit.
.

Fair points. However the settler will take another 8 turns anyway and the obelisk will take 6 turns as I recall. Even though we can't build farms we will still gain extra food which will help Osaka to grow to 6. Also the expansion brings in another gem which is good for gold and hammers. We've got a fair amount of military as it is. That said, I'm not going to die in a ditch over it. One of the reasons I stopped was so that it can be discussed.

Thrallia said:
As for some procedural things...how many turns should I play when I take the save, and what is the url I upload it to? I seem to have lost it somewhere.

Definitely at least 10. :lol:

No doubt juballs can give us a ruling. As for the url the simplest is to look at one of AlanH posts. It will include the link in his sig.

klarius · Aug 15, 2006

Ok, nice overall so MM isn't as good as could be

.
First, if you can't make sure every turn that there is no starvation, please use the governor, if in doubt. Osaka having starved is a big setback :cry:

. I would MM away from the iron to grow back as fast as possible, while slowly building another strong unit.
Tokyo should use the cow and grow as fast as possible and then pop-rush either a work boat or a lighthouse (my preference, a work boat may come from Kyoto at some time). After that it should build a warrior before getting unhappy.
And 0% then 100% science is definitely getting us one extra beaker currently

.

It's too late for an Obelisk. We either build a library, or the palace in Osaka soon. But before that the worker should finally connect to the river. We might pick up a religion from Spain in Osaka. I would now also start a small adventure into Spain. Looks like we could afford to spare the 2 swords together with the health warrior.

Finally Thrallia, was that a got it

. I didn't read the magic words.

X post with Sam:
We don't gain anything by expansion. Another 3 food tile (oasis) will not cut it and the rice and sheep are of no help (only 2 food) w/o the techs. The rice is anyway not on water so it's worse than a flood plain.

Thrallia · Aug 16, 2006

its a got it

I just may not play it until morning depending on what pops onto my plate tonight.

as for building an obelisk...we are getting fairly close to calendar in tech, and we do have a fair amount of commerce being produced there, so a library would not be wasted. However, the only thing it looks like we would gain would be a grassland gem for right now.

I'll take a look at the save in a bit, and try to figure if it'll be worthwhile. I may end up doing little other than building our fourth city, starting our offensive against Izzy(which should be fairly easy, considering she just got BW), and beginning the palace in Osaka.

One other thought...once the palace begins in Osaka, should I chop it and pop rush it? or just rely on chops?

Sam_Yeager · Aug 16, 2006

klarius said:
But before that the worker should finally connect to the river. We might pick up a religion from Spain in Osaka. I would now also start a small adventure into Spain. Looks like we could afford to spare the 2 swords together with the health warrior.

We are connected to the river.

Thrallia · Aug 16, 2006

I think he means the Western river, not the northern one.

klarius · Aug 16, 2006

We are not connected to the river.
The rice is not on the river.

Thrallia · Aug 16, 2006

I thought the rice was on the river as well, but it appears it is indeed not on the river.

I'll connect us to the river then, and expand our empire some more.

The settler in Kyoto will be complete in 2 turns, so our next city will be in place in 4-5 turns. I shall then begin building the palace in Osaka, begin a workboat in Kyoto(to use setting up one of the crabs next to Tokyo), and see what else should be done from there.

Which forests have been pre-chopped for the palace, and should I use them immediately, or should I wait until Tokyo and our next city grow at least one pop?

klarius · Aug 16, 2006

I would not build the palace right away.
It does help us only, if we then have towns near Osaka right away. So I would continue for some time to build military, so we are ready to capture some towns. Also note that barb axes will come soon.
Also I would like to have at least a courthouse in Kyoto and maybe also in Tokyo. That obviously needs CoL and size 4 to rush 2 pop. Tokyo urgently needs a lighthouse to reach this kind of population. It should be rushed at the first opportunity.
The first build in the stony town also should be a lighthouse so it can grow at all. Because of the stone hill this will be hand build in 15 turns, so not that bad.
But even before that we should have a library in Kyoto and maybe also in Osaka, if we can afford to build it.

markh · Aug 16, 2006

Thrallia said:
As for some procedural things...how many turns should I play when I take the save, and what is the url I upload it to? I seem to have lost it somewhere.

Anything between 10 and 20 turns. I think we said 20 turns for the first set of each player, but this is not a must. If you think there is point where the team should decide how to proceed stop and come back here to report. Then either you can continue or hand the save over to the next one.

For uploading the save go to the first page of our thread and click on the "Results and Progress" link in Alan's post. After the linked page is open there it is somewhere mentioned "You can upload your save here" and you are redirected to the upload page.

Thrallia · Aug 17, 2006

The Save

Well, I meant to play 20 turns, but apparently my counting was off, cause it looks like I played 18 turns...oh well, a lot happened during my turns anyway. (Edit: Actually, looking at my notes and the turnlog...I did play 20 turns, it just looked like 18 in the turnlog because nothing was entered into it until my 3rd turn when Priesthood was discovered.)

Here's my notes for my turns:

1090BC-760BC

Turn 1: Changed Tokyo build to Lighthouse, Osaka to Axeman, Worker goes to build road next to river

Turn 2: Nothing

Turn 3: road to river complete, settler finished in Kyoto, build changed to Lighthouse, Priesthood>Writing

Turn 5: Edo founded

Turn 6-9: Nothing

Turn 10: Osaka Axeman>Axeman I use the prechopped forest N of Osaka to finish a second axeman and begin the Oracle, then start prechopping a different forest

Turn 11: Osaka Axeman>Oracle

Turn 12: Tokyo Lighthouse rushed

Turn 15: Spain declares war on us? lol Izzy sent two archers down to Osaka as I sent 2 swordsmen and our medic warrior up toward her territory. I guess that ends my dilema about whether to declare war or not.

Turn 16: Writing Discovered>CoL begun. Pop rush Lighthouse in Kyoto, increases pop growth and gets an overflow for the Library, growth again in 2 turns and should be able to rush library soon.

Turns 15-17: Destroy 6 spanish archers, capture a settler.

Turn 20: Library rushed and completed in Kyoto, workboat begun but no hammers put into it yet. Lighthouse finished in Edo, warrior begun, no hammers put into it. Oracle built in a distant land, we got 79 gold from it, so we can run higher science for awhile probably. I began library in Osaka then, but it also has no hammers so can be changed if needed.

Reasoning for workboat in Kyoto is that Kyoto can build a workboat for Tokyo, since Tokyo takes so long to build them. I started the warrior in Edo mainly as a placeholderfor the next player. I started the library in Osaka because we may want some culture soon and it looks like Spain may not have any bronze still, all I've seen are archers and our two swordsmen are wiping the floor with them.

Dilemma: Barcelona is the Jewish holy city. Do we take it and keep it or raze it? I would vote keep it and adopt judaism as our state religion.

Other notes:

Spain has given up on invading Osaka, it seems, after having 6 archers slaughtered in 3 turns. However, Izzy founded a jungle city(haven't seen it, only culture boundary) near the N copper site, so we should probably raze it either before or after attacking Barcelona.
Both our built worker and our captured worker are prechopping the southernmost forest within Osaka's borders, the one W of Osaka is already mostly prechopped.
It looks like we could possibly take out quickly, since Izzy only has 3 cities, two of which are holy cities, and since she has no metals. One or two more swordsmen would probably be enough to take Madrid and substantially increase our empire size, cultural ability, and research ability.
If you turn on the yield display when looking at Kyoto, you see some food and commerce yield on ocean tiles to the SE. It also looks like there may be either a cultural border or a coast hidden in that fog. Is it possible that there's a continent so close to our Island Empire?

Also, I unfortunately had less time than I thought I would, uni registration took a lot longer than it should have, so I don't have any screenshots I can get. If Klarius doesn't plan on playing in the next 24 hours, I can post some screenshots tomorrow.

Here's the turnlog as well:

Spoiler :

klarius · Aug 17, 2006

Looks good so far.
I got it and intend to play today.

A small problem is what to do with Barcelona. I would like to attack, hoping for some gold from plunder.
But keeping this lousy city will cost a lot maintenance, while the city will not produce anything soon.
On the other side it's the holy city of Judaism.

BTW I don't think going for Madrid soon is an option. There will be quite a few troops and it will have a lot cultural defense already. We also have to think of the barbs, which will come with axes soon.

Thrallia · Aug 17, 2006

unless spain has no copper, cause most barbs I've seen are still warriors, not even mostly archers yet. And if she doesn't have copper, which is likely since she tried using archers for her offensive against us, then 4 swordsmen could fairly quickly take madrid, I think. One archer in barcelona has a garrison promotion, and our swordsmen with combat 2 and city raider 1 still has 88% chance against it. If we take down her outlying cities first, that would give at least 2 of our swordmen city raider 2 promotions as well.

klarius · Aug 17, 2006

Well, Barcelona has no culture. Madrid will have probably 60% culture defense by now (it's the Buddhist holy city).
And city raider 2 doesn't really cut it.
The swords are promoted combat 2 (which is a mistake IMO), so cannot easily get city raider 3 for the really big boost.

In other news I will play now

.
My goal will be to really get us towards a decent empire with the palace at the right position and courthouses in the distant towns.

klarius · Aug 17, 2006

Ok played

. The save.
Palace and courthouses are under way.

But fighting wasn't so hot. :mad:

Turnlog:

Turn 0 760BC:
Look through our cities.
Kyoto is pretty unhappy by two pop rushes in short succession - not so nice. I assign a scientist. It will still grow faster than useful.
Tokyo is happy - rush workboat. The additional food will make it regrow faster and there will anyways be nothing to rush in the next 15 turns.
Put Osaka on max shields for now.
After some fiddling around, put research on 100%. That's the best comprimise between bonus in Kyoto and for the whole empire currently (I will check every turn).
Whack a barb.

Turn 1 745BC:
Assign another scientist in Kyoto - it will still grow right before another happy citizen is available.
Make fishing net for Tokyo.
Take a deep breath and attack Barcelona. Both swords win. Now what? We got 114 gold in plunder, so we can afford some more maintenance. I keep the city but may regret it later.
Science 90% is now a fraction of a beaker better.

Turn 2 730BC:
Bad RNG. Lose a warrior to a barb warrior at 99% (on defense) in my favor. I hope that's it with my bad luck.
Nothing else to do.

Turn 3 715BC:
Nothing to do besides shifting a few units. A barb appears at Barcelona and I decide to let the barbs have it to avoid the maintenance.

Turn 4 700BC:
Barbs have captured Barcelona.

Turn 5-6 685BC-670BC:
Nothing interesting.

Turn 7 655BC:
Library completes in Osaka -> palace. Spain has recaptured Barcelona.

turn 8 640BC:
Not much.

Turn 9 625BC:
Not much.

Turn 10 610BC:
I take barcelona again, but lose a sword at 95% chance. I think my RNG is broken. I continue to get to an even turn number and to get CoL hopefully.
Also in other news, the first barb axe is visible near Osaka.

Turn 11 595BC:
Barcelona is to much of a drag. There is a barb warrior so I will give it again to the barbs for a turn.

Turn 12 580BC:
Not much.

Turn 13 565BC:
Lose an axe against a barb axe. Slowly it's getting thin with my bad RNG. CoL comes in - order a few courthouses.
Research on agriculture. Osaka will soon expand.
Once again take Barcelona. I think we can keep it now that CoL is in and we can get our empire soon up to speed.

Turn 14 550BC:
That's an even turn (130), so now it's time to quit.
Don't do much.

Handoff notes:

Next turn Osaka will expand, so we could start to improve the riverside tiles. But it's still quite a bit to the palace so we might want to cut another forest or two first to speed it up.
It's also about time that we build more troops soon - the defenses get pretty thin with my bad RNG.

Kyoto is building a work boat that should complete and go to Tokyo. Tokyo needs to grow as fast as possible to size 4 so it can rush it's courthouse, while Kyoto anyways cannot use the fourth resource currantly.

The courthouse in Kyoto should be rushed just before the palace completes. Kyoto is still pretty unhappy. But nevertheless it should be rushed then, even when a few turns unhappiness remain.

I'm partial about Barcelona. There is a barb warrior so we could give it again to the barbs for some turns by moving out the troops. That would save us quite a bit maintenance. On the other side we can probably afford it until the palace is built.

I would continue to use scientists in Kyoto, if otherwise we would just grow to unhappy. That will lead to a Great Scientist soon. But by then Kyoto will not be the capital anymore and by that not be a really hot commerce city.
So I wouldn't build an academy in Kyoto.
The scientist will want to research math, which is to cheap waste a scientist, so I would store him for later.

Spoiler session log :

SGOTM 02 - Geezers

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Another Original Geezer

Another Original Geezer

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Another Original Geezer

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Another Original Geezer

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Another Original Geezer

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Deity

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