SGOTM 02 - Team CFR

[Lexad]

Wow, you guys took all the sweet stuff before me! There sure are swell ideas here!
I totally agree with speeding up science with 1 feeder in Edo. In fact, I proposed it 3 pages earlier

Now we have 17 turns before GS in Edo (15 if move 1 feeder for 6 turns to science), so after next turnset we might as well start researching Astro.

I also agree with Kyoto scheme, excellent plan!
We sure don't need too much galeons - if we pop-rush a samurai every 2 turns and produce by hammers ~ 1 samurai per turn in other cities (my calcs in some earlier post), we need a 1,5*galeon chain = 1.5*2 = 3 galeons to deliver them non-stop. That is 2 are in chain and 1 is a shuttle. However, we will need more ships for moving troops along the other continent. So I think some time after we should exclude galeons from buildchains.
We have more than enough catas for the start now, don't think we need to introduce them in current rushing queues. As our attackers are even superior to the last game (samurai > macers), we need catas mostly to destroy defences, not fo suicide missions, and we won't need to recover their losses until mass longbows/xbows era.

 

[IL2T]

Whether we shall build ship chain?
The necessary quantity of galeons can be calculated having estimated a chain.

 

[Balbes]

Everything works fine with both galeons and samurais. The most important conclusion is that we loose more by not using Madrid food potential fully, then we loose from wasting hammers on MP. So we should build chariots in Seville for MP duty in Madrid and rush whatever we need in Madrid constantly

Um, I should've put it in a clearer way. We can't build samurais only, because the carryover hammers would put them out of the optimal poprushing range - or so I suspect, without really having done the calculations. So the question is what to use as the sink for those carryover hammers. It was proposed to accumulate them into a galleon on queue, and produce MP units in another city; but we don't need more than a few galleons. So afterwards we'll have to revert to chariots.

 

[Lexad]

With such a short chain it really doesn't matter whether you have a 2-shuo chain or 2 ships shuttling in turns.

Now for Madrid - just want to proove proposed long-run strat of rushing samurai and bringing war chariots in their stead. Madrid can churn from 3 to 11 hammers even w/o workshops. Rushing Samurai with 2 pop using the bug requires rush start at 89-110 hammers to go (0-16 hammers completed), rushing at 1 pop using bug requires 45-55 hammers to go (50-60 completed).
This overflow exceeds required 16-hammer limit, we won't be able to pop-rush 2. So either we should always pop-rush 1, or go for other pop-rush cycle.

Pop-rush 1 approach. Here I produce max hammers when I can and in final pre-rush stage adjust prod to use the bug.
0. Let's start from 11 hammers - current max prod,
1. pop-rush at 2 with max production (11). Overflow 132-105+11+11 = 49 hammers
2. work at max production for 1 more turn to materialise overflow. we have 60 hammers = max limit for pop-rushing using bug (so if startup production at stage 0 was more than 11, we need to slow down)
3. Pop-rush with 1 pop. overflow = 88-45+11=54 hammers
4. Work for 1 turn to materialise hammers. Can't produce more than 6.
5. goto step 3. Rinse and repeat.

Thus every 2 turns we pop-rush a samurai with 1 pop. Notice that we underemploy hammer potential by producing 5 hammers each 2 turns. This allows us high-pop steady state when it takes 2 turns to recover 1 pop. Sadly, this means more units to pacify them.

Trying to get 2-produce-2-produce sequence would require to finish 44 remaining hammers after step 2 from prev sequence = 4~ turns, so it is 6~turn loop for 2 samurai.

1-pop loop seems better, giving samurai each 2 trns vs each 3 turns for 2-prod-2.

 

[Lexad]

The alternative is 2pop samurai - prod chariot loop proposed by Balbes.
0. Have x hammers between 1 and 16
1. Pop-rush samurai. Overflow 44-16+x +production1 = 28 + x + production1
2. Finish producing chariot so that 37-28 = 9 < production1+production2+x. Feasible cuz summary prod for 2 turns lies from 6 to 22.
Edit: Overflow = x-3 - that's why x needs to be no less than 3 for steady loop, cuz to get 9 prod in 3 turns we need to produce 3 every turn.
3. Materialise overflow. Prod = 3.
4. Starting hammers = x. Turn 1 - rinse and repeat.

Why is this approach better: - wrong. Read correct version 2nd post lower

 

[Obormot]

In the second variant you get samurais every 3 turns. In the first one you get samurais every 2 turns. The difference is about equal to the support city production, so I see no difference. Actually the first cycle seems to be better since we are only killing one citizen in two turns and thus we are growing. So we'll be able to poprush immidiately from time to time (without any hammers invested).

 

[Lexad]

My bad, was a bit under alcoholic influence, imperfect arithmetics. In 2nd case - sam-chariot - I forgot to add 1 more turn to fix hammers overflow after chariots, so we get 9 hammers in 3 turrns of production (means no hammers not from city tile) in order to stay in place. Also it means we get 3 turns between samurai. Thanx, Obormot! Then both variants are pretty much the same.

 

[Balbes]

We cannot whip every 1 turn because of the rushing-from-zero penalty, and no time to fix oveflow. So we whip every 2 turns.

Do we whip 1 pop or 2 pop? I prefer to whip 2 pop, because 132 hammers every 2 turns is much better than 88 hammers every 2 turns.

Can we have a steady loop like that in Madrid? Yes, we can. Madrid, in its current state without any new workshops or somesuch, can produce 5, 8, 10, 13 hammers per turn. Unfortunately we'll have to use the lowest production rate of 5 hammers/turn.

turn#  stored    +prod   +rush  total   build     used   remain
  (1)       5        5     132    142   samurai    105     37
  (2)      37        5       -     42   chariot     37      5
  (3)       5        5     132    142   samurai    105     37
  (4)      37        5       -     42   chariot     37      5
     ...repeat...

Madrid will oscillate between sizes 5-6-7. The "stored" number on the turns we build samurai doesn't have to be 5, should be between 1-16 as Lexad correctly pointed out.

We lose (13-5)*2 = 16 hammers every 2 turns because of not working the high-hammer tiles, but 132-16 is still better than 88.

 

[Balbes]

Kyoto has a maximum of +15 food/turn (aften unhappiness expires), still too low to regrow 2 pop in 2 turns at least half of the time. There we'll have to whip for 1. Again, production should be set to 5h/turn by hiring an engineer. Below I'm simply elaborating on what IL2T said:

("stored" should be between 4-15)

turn#  stored    +prod   +rush  total   build     used   remain
  (1)       4        5      88     97  catapult     60     37
  (2)      37        5       -     42   chariot     37      5
  (3)       5        5      88     98  catapult     60     38
  (4)      38        5       -     43   chariot     37      6
     ...repeat (for some time before correcting overflow)...

Simply drop the engineer for one turn when you need to get "stored" back below 15.

A samurai+chariot every 5 turns is also a possibility but not as useful, I think. Collateral damage galore! Logistics will be a pain though.

Also I must note that these cycles are very sensitive to war weariness. We should be keeping extra units on hand for suppressing that.

 

[IL2T]

About Madrid: If we make prebuild samurai, some time we can pop-rush Samurais each turns with parity 1 citizen - 88 hammers.

 

[Balbes]

About Madrid: If we make prebuild samurai, some time we can pop-rush Samurais each turns with parity 1 citizen - 88 hammers.

Unfortunately we can't because it's still rushing-from-zero even if there has been a carryover; the samurai needs to spend at least 1 turn building normally, for the overflow hammers to get invested.
This also means the above tables are incorrect, and the fastest we can get is 1 samurai every 3 turns, or perhaps a 2-3-2-3 turns pattern in the best case. I need to rethink this.

 

[Obormot]

You made the same mistake in your calculations as Lexad did. You won't be able to rush on turn 3 in your plans because there are no hammers invested yet at that point, the overflow from turn 2 will only be together with the production from turn 3, so you can only rush again on turn 4.

If you want to build chariots in Madrid using overflow, you can only get samurais every 3 turns. Now, killing one citizen every two turns you can get a steady loop of 2-turn samurais. You'll have to build chariots in the support city in this case, so the two cycles are about equally efficent. The advantage of 1-pop, 2-turn samurai cycle is that you'll be growing faster then whipping. The population will accumulate, and at some point you'll be able to rush with 0-hammer penalty, getting rid of the extra citizens. If I understand everything correctly, rushing a samurai from 0 with a forge costs 3 citizens (105*1.5/55) and gives 44*3=132 hammers.

So every 7 turns we can whip 1 pop 3 times and 3 pop 1 time, that should give us a more or less stable cycle. If we whip only samurais, production should be (105*4-88*3-132)/7=3+3/7. This requires chopping forest on the deer camp and working only o-hammer tiles for most of the time. If we rush a galeon or two in the cycle, we can afford to work horses or copper more.

 

[IL2T]

Example for Madrid 10 samurai + galeon available in 12 turns

Start with galeon, next samurai
turn#  stored   +prod   +rush  total   build     used   remain
  (1)             13             13   galeon          
  (2)      37     13      132   158   galeon     120      38

Prebuild turn#  stored    +prod   +rush  total   build     used   remain
13       (1)      38         5      88     144  samurai     105     39
13       (2)      39         5      88     145  samurai     105     40
13       (3)      40         5      88     146  samurai     105     41
13       (4)      41         5      88     147  samurai     105     42
etc.

 

[Obormot]

Example for Madrid 10 samurai + galeon available in 12 turns

That is impossible for the same reason. We cannot rush with just one citizen immidiately after completing the previous build.

 

[IL2T]

or

Start with galeon, next samurai
turn#  stored   +prod   +rush  total   build     used   remain
  (1)             13             13   galeon          
  (2)      37     13      132   158   galeon     120      38

Prebuild turn#  stored    +prod   +rush  total   build     used   remain
13       (1)      38         5      88     144  samurai     105     39
13       (2)      39         5      88     145  samurai     105     40
9        (3)      40         9      88     146  samurai     105     41
9        (4)      41         9      88     147  samurai     105     42

Copper to sea -> more food, more gold

 

[IL2T]

That is impossible for the same reason. We cannot rush with just one citizen immidiately after completing the previous build.

Why? if we have prebuild

 

[Obormot]

If you rush a samurai, next turn you'll have 0 hammers in the box. Overflow hammers are only added next turn together with normal production. After completing a build you have to either skip one turn, or rush with 3 citizens. So the best we can do is build 4 samurais in 7 turns.

 

[IL2T]

Ok. Then 1 samurai in 2 turns without prebuild.

Some note:
1.We shall not have problems with quantity of armies.
2.The Egyptian cities will give us 4 luxury resources.
3.Each city should use pop-rush with parity 1 citizen for 88 hammers.
4.We not need oscillate cycle city, except Kyoto.

 

[IL2T]

About tech plan: We can discover Astro in 6 turns and CS in 9 turns after start session. Am i right?

Then revolution. Lexad start with slavery and great war task.

 

[IL2T]

We need to build around 6-8 Samurais, 2-3 Galleons and several Cats for starting war.

3 Galeons have 9 places of cargo space. We need 5-6 samurais and 3-4 catas. It's realy get at 12 turns after current turns.