SGOTM 02 - Team CFR

[IL2T]

Upgrade swords to samurai will cost 155 gold.

As we shall struggle with crossbw (only cover promotion) or crossbw too?

 

[Balbes]

You made the same mistake in your calculations as Lexad did. You won't be able to rush on turn 3 in your plans because there are no hammers invested yet at that point, the overflow from turn 2 will only be together with the production from turn 3, so you can only rush again on turn 4.

Roger. That was what I realized.

The population will accumulate, and at some point you'll be able to rush with 0-hammer penalty, getting rid of the extra citizens. If I understand everything correctly, rushing a samurai from 0 with a forge costs 3 citizens (105*1.5/55) and gives 44*3=132 hammers.

Correct.

So every 7 turns we can whip 1 pop 3 times and 3 pop 1 time, that should give us a more or less stable cycle.

Let's compare the two schemes for efficiency.

Madrid-1

Samurai - begin
Samurai - whip 2 pop, ready
Chariot - begin and ready
Samurai - begin
Samurai - whip 2 pop, ready
Chariot - begin and ready

Madrid-2

Samurai - begin
Samurai - whip 1 pop, ready
Samurai - begin
Samurai - whip 1 pop, ready
Samurai - begin
Samurai - whip 1 pop, ready
Samurai - whip 3 pop, ready

Madrid-1 produces 1 samurai and 1 chariot every 3 turns, contributing 105+37 = 142 hammers / 3 turns = 47.33 h/turn towards our military buildup.

Over 7 turns, Madrid-2 contributes 105*4 = 420 hammers. It also puts a drain on the empire's combined production, because we need to produce MP chariots elsewhere. We whipped 4 times and need 4 chariots costing 37*4 = 148 hammers. Thus, net contribution of Madrid-2 is 420-148 = 288 h / 7 turns = 41.15 h/turn.

Madrid-1 is (slightly) more efficient.

 

[Dynamic]

Don't forget about Pop regeneration. We need check it too.

 

[Obormot]

OK, great. Lets move on. We have invented a nice trick, but talking about MMing a single city for several pages is a bit too much I think.

And don't forget about Meditation & Theocracy thing!

EDIT: sorry, it aint over yet!

Madrid-1 produces 1 samurai and 1 chariot every 3 turns, contributing 105+37 = 142 hammers / 3 turns = 47.33 h/turn towards our military buildup.

Over 7 turns, Madrid-2 contributes 105*4 = 420 hammers. It also puts a drain on the empire's combined production, because we need to produce MP chariots elsewhere. We whipped 4 times and need 4 chariots costing 37*4 = 148 hammers. Thus, net contribution of Madrid-2 is 420-148 = 288 h / 7 turns = 41.15 h/turn.

In the first case you are counting chariots as usefull production, in the second case you are subtracting their value. So you are basicly counting the same thing twice. If you discard the chariots, then the first case is only 35 hpt!

 

[Balbes]

OK, great. Lets move on. We have invented a nice trick, but talking about MMing a single city for several pages is a bit too much I think.

As I said before, I need to know if Madrid requires any workshops and/or farms for the MM numbers to work out. If so, I must begin building them now. Also, whether or not we'll need additional MP units right away, so they will have to be built now (the answer depends on city size during the cycle) (probably "no" for Madrid and "yes" for Kyoto).

EDIT: sorry, it aint over yet!

In the first case you are counting chariots as usefull production, in the second case you are subtracting their value. So you are basicly counting the same thing twice. If you discard the chariots, then the first case is only 35 hpt!

That's because Madrid-1 produces chariots and Madrid-2 doesn't produce them but requires them. This tasks another city with chariot production, a city that is producing more samurais instead in case of Madrid-1.

 

[Lexad]

Or to put it otherwise, you do not consider the useful production of another city building chariots for Madrid-1 when you analyse Madrid-2 case.
I don't see much use in firther discussion as we're basicly repeating my calcs making same or new mistakes over again. As the conclusion, Madrid-2 allows 4 rushes in 7 turns (Obormot's idea) or 12 over 21 turn, while Madrid-1 - 1 every 3, giving 7 per 21 turns, plus extra 3 samurai from the city which would build chariots under Madrid-2 scenario, totalling 10. 12>10, Madrid-2 > Madrid-1. Let's go for it.

Edit: and we have more hammers than we need (read Obormot and mine calcs) so no new workshops required. On the contrary, we should get no hammers other than from city's plot, so we need to chop the deer forest.

Dynamic, at this pop level we'll have new pop every turn, so 7-turns-loop with sac-ing 6 pop allows us even to grow if we wish - or put specialists to slow growth down.

 

[Obormot]

That's because Madrid-1 produces chariots and Madrid-2 doesn't produce them but requires them. This tasks another city with chariot production, a city that is producing more samurais instead in case of Madrid-1.

No, that is wrong. Both Madrid-1 and Madrid-2 require chariots for happiness, while in your calculations only Madrid-2 does and chariots produced in Madrid-1 are viewed as usefull production, not MP.

Don't forget about Pop regeneration. We need check it too.

Good catch. We can gain +19 FPT working freshwater crabs, fish, rice (irrigated), deer and sheep - size=5+. In 7 turns we produce 133 food. During that time we need to gain 6 citizens. If on average we are going to be at size=6, we are going to need 24*6=144 food to grow. So it doesn't work out.

We'll have to whip 1 pop 4 times and 3 pop 1 times for it work out. That gives us 5 samurais/9 turns. We gain 171 food in 9 turns and we need 24*7=168 food or so. This is still slightly better then Balbes's cycle though (HPT=(105*5-37*5)/9 = 37.78 vs. 35 of Madrid-1. But the difference is negligible, so we can use Madrid-1 since in that case the MM is not so tricky.

 

[Balbes]

Right. The correct model follows:

Madrid-1 over 3 turns:

Outgoing: 1 samurai
Stays inside: 1 chariot
Incoming: nothing

Balance: 105/3 = +35 hpt

Madrid-2 over 7 turns

Outgoing: 4 samurais
Stays inside: nothing
Incoming: 4 chariots

Balance: (105*4 - 37*4)/7 = +38.85 hpt and is better.


I'll play tonight as the picture finally seems to become clearer.

 

[Balbes]

As we shall struggle with crossbw (only cover promotion) or crossbw too?

Assaulting a city, samurais will get paired vs crossbows but if we try to attack with a crossbow of our own the defender will switch to a longbow. It appears there's no way other than attacking with Cover-promoted samurais and accepting the losses.

 

[Lexad]

Obormot and Dynamic are right, I overestimated our food capacity. So let's stick to the 5-in-9 schedule proposed by Obormot once we need no more ships. Also there's currently some happiness reserve (esp as our pop is expected to go down) so that we can produce less MP chariots at the start

 

[Dynamic]

Do we need Heroic Epic?

 

[Obormot]

I think it is a good idea. IIRC we can trade for Literature and maybe we can also trade for marble after Astronomy. Also we should be able produce enough cats quickly and we cannot build samurais before CS, so we won't even waste hammers. Now we need to decide where to build it? Osaka or ... Madrid?!

 

[IL2T]

There is only 1 source of marble in visible area.
While I do not see a convenient variant of an exchange for the Literature.

Point of a recoupment for Heroic Epic without marble is 6 samurais (~30 turns). It's favourable.

Balbes
When are you going to play?

 

[Obormot]

Building HE in Madrid is not very efficent. We'll be able to rush with 1 pop for 132 hammers at 1-16 hammers in the box or with 2 citizens for 132 hammers with 0 hammers in the box. The overflow will be high though, and we won't be able to keep a 2-turn cycle. The best solution I can see is investing overflow into catapults. This means that we'll have a 5-turn cycle: prepair, rush 1-pop samurai, build cat, rush 2-pop samurai, build cat. Net effective production is 51 hammers per turn. This means that HE in Madrid will effectively gain us only about 14 hammers. So I think we should build it in the most productive low food city (so that we only rush 1 pop in 15 turns, or don't rush at all).

 

[Lexad]

Yeah, I recall you had problem with underobtaining the pop-rushing effect in HE city last GOTM. Better Osaka or YaYoi.

Also, Balbes, just reminding so that we do not forget about it with all this Madrid story - 2 pop from food to scientist in Edo for 1 turn, 1 for 4

 

[Balbes]

Hi genlemen, this is just to assure you I'm still here. The reason for the delay is that I may have stumbled upon another (beneficial to us) bug, and am in the process of discussing it with AlanH. As soon as he replies to my PM I'll post the details here.

 

[Gyathaar]

Hi genlemen, this is just to assure you I'm still here. The reason for the delay is that I may have stumbled upon another (beneficial to us) bug, and am in the process of discussing it with AlanH. As soon as he replies to my PM I'll post the details here.

About this bug.. do you have a save from before and after it happens?
Somehow i have a feeling it isnt actually a bug but instead something else happening

 

[Lexad]

And what precisely are we talking about here?

 

[Gyathaar]

And what precisely are we talking about here?

Not a real bug I think.. its just that when you have 1 turn of anarchy, the anarchy is just for the duration of the IBT, and the event log shows the start and end of the anarchy as the same turn.

 

[Lexad]

Well, you still do not get hammers/food/bulbs/etc for the end of turn you go into anarchy, no bug here, just represenation might be misleading.