SGOTM 03 - Team VQ

We dont need Iron right now... I think... IF we can stand the wait for getting Currency, we
a) Get some change to go with IW
b) Know more CIVS

But probably wont be able to trade Math for it anymore. It will have to be currency...

Do we have any "low end techs" we can add to IW?

We can whip anything on the last turn and get 40 hammers overflow... The point is to make a "profit"....
I still have not tested it... *runs to test*

Also I dont know which is better? Whip the 2 settlers or ....
Have moscow produce one... I think Petes can whip it no questions asked, or produce the first (with some chops added in?) and whip a second ASAP after that?
 
Okay, i'm always forgetting this SGOTM, i'll ty to remember now.
Do please skip me for this round though. (I will be able to play next round)
But I need still need to make 2 reports of SG's and i'm a bit cluttered in schoolwork :)
 
Ha! Mao protective, that's nothing, because Alex is Aggressive and has Phalanx. Taking over Mao is rather profitable though, because we not only get the 'Mids, we also steal Judaism.

The benefit of the soon-to-be-idle worker is that we could immediately load 'em into the galley with the settler once it's finished. We already have a warrior on the bronze site to handle city defense. But if I only waited to chop until the "after math", the galley would've been ready by my final turn with overflow.
 
Hmm ... Cosmic seems to be OoP ... when was the last time he posted something?

No problem, FuRRie.

Roster
namliaM
Dot
Greyfox
Robo Kai == turned stones into gold
Furrie == furiously skipped
Cosmichail == UP for settling
Bobrath == Authorized to grab it if he can beat Cosmic to it
Scowler
 
Got it - and playing.

So far... well you'll have to read my report in a bit. One question tho, after we found the Passage (east of spot) and Copper City... where to next?

Edit:
I need to pause here tho (5 turns left)
We have Alpha (set to start on Poly for Lit next turn), and it looks like we have the monopoly on it (for met AIs). Here are the available trades:
Alex wants Math and Alpha for IW
Ghandi does not have IW
Mansa will give us IW + Poly for Alpha
Hatty IW, but is lacking Writing and Sailing so won't trade us for IW
Vikki won't trade IW to us
Mansa wants Math and Alpha for IW.

civ4screenshot0008pb3.jpg


Obviously the best trade here is with Mansa, however that lets the Alpha monopoly out of the bag. I can make a few other trades to try to maximize our return on Alpha, but I'll quickly run into the "you can't pick up a tech that is dependant on a tech you just traded for - wait one turn". SO any input from the team?
 
I would say grab Copper and B first. Then Passage and the final western city... Then start taking over MAO/Alex?

Edit on Bob's edit:
How about we gift Hatty writing or trade her for ... Poly? Then see if she will trade IW?

I wouldnt go for Lit at this point tho... We dont need (more) wonders IMHO. I would pick up Currency (more $$) and go for compas/optics for ... More $$$
Also currency will allow us to pick up lose cash from the AI allowing us to keep 100% research going...
 
Sorry for the cross posting there! Hmm... B before passage? Interesting. Why?
 
Well for several reasons
1) It is closer
2) Lots of jungle, but we can chop... And the fish + cows make for great food.
3) Get that city going (its near hatty might need the culture there and might "restrain" any settling ideas she has)
fordotmapping12-08-06.jpg


I see you dont have the "enhanced" advisor(s) clicked on... You should do that as it also shows which techs the AI want and can research... Really helpfull for us -non- players.

Trading:
Trade writing to Hatty for -anything really- Uhm... AH seems like a great one... and Agri is she is willing...
Next turn see if she is willing to pick up math (+Fishing?) for IW.

Edit2: Can you upload the save so we/I can have a look at it?

Edit3: Math <=> IW should be enough for a straight up trade even for a Monarch AI... :sad:

Edit4: Do any of you guys have some sort of instant messaging? I use plain old MSN... Addy: @hotmail.com the name: namliaM_ehT
 
OOps, meant Mao wants Math and Alpha for IW.

Settlers - I have one sitting at our passage city site (one E of the above pic) and one settler sitting on the rice north of moscow. My intent was to only settle the passage and have the other settler hanging out to emergency settle if we spot a galley (but still inside our borders to keep cost down). I really don't want to smash our economy by over founding, unless there's a great reason to put off Passage over B, let me know. (or heck if you can convince me that founding both now won't hurt more then it helps).

We can't chop jungle (so no gems at copper city yet) until we get IW. So Novgorod is going to take a chunk of time to do anything. There's not enough food or hammers in the LFC to speed it up. Working on Monument, but wish we could luck into a religion!

We can get (from memory) Agri from Hatty for Writing - that was her offer for Writing but I suspect I could get AH instead.

Thoughts on Poly being next research (5 turns at 100&#37;)?
 
I would research Currency, get more money flowing asap.

I would found both cities ASAP. Why? They should never cost more than 4 GPT to start with.
Once founded we get (atleast) 3 (domestic) traderoutes and the CC = 4 GPT.
We know 4 AI, with whom we have OBs. Therefor if all have 3 cities we should have enough 4 cities foreign traderoutes which are 2 gpt instead of 1.

Also with currency we can start leeching the AI coffers for money to support our empire.

Hopefully Hatty will be more forthcomming with the Math (+fishing?) => IW trade than the others.
I presume we have the galley out meeting new AI? and have another Galley beeing produced to start heading the other way?

On agri vs AH, I am not sure... But if we have to choose.... AH, a pastured cow brings hammers. Rice does not.

Edit: did you upload the save bob? So we poor -non- playing types can have an ingame look?

Edit2: Also I think AH is more expensive than Agri

Edit3: Maybe we can hold of on settling E a little... Tho that will pay for itself pretty fast too... once we can or have chopped and mined those gems....
 
I thought trade across the "ocean" only came with Astronomy. Does that not count shared coastal lands?

I'm jealously guarding my save!!! (ot I'm just lazy)

From your comments Namliam, it sounds like you don't think Alpha for IW is a good trade.

Currency is a 21 turn research target (at 100&#37; and I'm not even sure we can sustain 100 for the entire time).
 
Well, I uploaded my save file. Its 15 turns in, so pending the thoughts and such offered tonight, I'll play my final 5 in the morning.

Here's the save

The brief turnlog:
Spoiler :

Turn 121, 685 BC: Mansa Musa adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 125, 625 BC: Novgorod has been founded.

Turn 134, 490 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!


Full writeup once I've played my turns.
 
City placement:
I think I just changed my mind on the passage. Settle it on the spot indicated...
The math:
On size 7 we can:
"on the gems" (OTG) work
Clams
Gems
Mined hill (3 hammer)
4 Cottages

On the hill (original spot=> ORS) work
Clams
Gems
Gems Hill (2 hammer/5 coins)
2 Cottages
2 Coast.

Asuming cottages:
OTG: 11 coins
ORS: 18 coins

Hamlets
OTG: 15
ORS: 20

Villages (pre-printing press)
OTG: 19
ORS: 21

Towns (pre-printing press)
OTG: 23
ORS: 23

At lower than size 7 we are just allways losing ... and pre printing press we will never gain from settling OTG, but for the 1 extra hammer/turn. Is it worth say 5gpt (on average for the next 15 + 30 + 45 = 90 turns(to grow to Towns) = total of 5*90 = 450 commerce and we still have to add turns to account for growing to size 7...) to get ONE extra hammer?
Offcourse we also get 2 extra hammers once
1) The cottages are Towns
2) We addop US
* Disclaimer * I dont know if we get an extra commerce for settling on Gems... Anyone know?

Research:
Yes, Currency currently is 21 turns at 100&#37;.
We have 233 in the bank (Mids :mad: ) which is depleating at -6gpt/turn.
With settling the 2 new cities we get more commerce (atleast CC + 7 GPT *more on this later*), total 16 GPT. Currently we are making 36 beakers/turn. Settling the 2 cities ASAP will increase this to 52.
Taking into account the 20% research bonus for having 1 prerequisite of Currency:
897 / (36 * 120%) = 21
897 / (52 * 120%) = 15

21 turns at -6GPT = -126.
Even if the total costs of the 2 cities drive our maintenance up to (233/15 =) 15 GPT (thats 9 gpt additional, which I dont think will happen) we can run 100% for 15 turns. After which we can start bleeding money from the AI (look for those finished wonders!!!)
Getting a Library in Moscow will give an additional 5 beakers/turn, which I think should be the next build in Moscow.

I dont like researching something we can trade for at this moment.....

Traderoutes:
As long as we have a path following culture with OBs (even on ocean tiles) we can form traderoutes with them.

*Note* Capitols are not shown in the trade screen.

From this we can learn a few things.
1) the Top AI (that we know) currently has 5 cities.
We can soon have 5 as well, therefor we have NOT been outexpanded (a lot)(yet) :).
2) We have 27 AI cities (that we know of) and can have OBs with
So we can trade(route) with 27 cities. 27/3 = enough traderoutes for 9 of our cities. Or after currency 27/4 = 6 cities...
So we can (without problem) found 6 cities (currently) and gain (with currency) 4*2 + CC = 9gpt per city, plus additional commerce from working additional tiles (Gems :drool:, coastal or even Ocean).
i.e. I dont see a problem with settling our lands ASAP !

On trading:
The way I see the Alpha trade, why give it up if we dont need to and/or if we get to little gain from it.

I think we can trade Writing for AH (this allready confirmed above) and Math for IW with Hatty. Math is more expensive, therefor a 1:1 trade should be possible.... and a Math + Fishing for IW should never be a problem for Hatty.
Why give up alpha when Math will do?
Alpha is more expensive + Gives the AI (earlier) ability to trade...
After we do the Writing <> AH deal with hatty and we find she is not willing to part with IW for a reasonable price, we can allways go back and pick up IW + Poly for Alpha (I am confused now who this is, but the deal appearently is there)

On GPs:
We should have a Merchant in 2 turns. I wouldnt burn him on Metal casting untill we have to/want to. This would be the moment of "we need/want to trade" or "we are going to be building forges"
This will delay any bonus any AI will get while researching it.
If need be we could burn him ASAP on MC and trade MC around for IW + other techs, but personaly I would want to hold on to MC as long as possible.
The merchant will burn on CURRENCY as his #1 tech! Currency = 897 vs MC 1008.
Getting Currency ~13 turns earlier with 5 cities adds 13 (turns) * 5 (Cities) * 2 (commerce) = 130gpt to our commerce.
This means we delay the total of MC + Currency a little, but we seem to gain a little commerce overall (20 to be exact)

Worker(s)
I would personaly mine that forrest hill near Moscow, rather than build a cottage which we are not going to work for a while?

Galleys:

We dont have a scout with the Galley... :( For the second galley I would like to load a Scout which can scout inland a bit of Alex and Mao (in particular)
A scout in moscow (currently) is a 3 turn build.

On OBs:
Alex is trespasing !

Uhm... well not so cause we have OBs. But he is about to sail into the open world.
Accoording to above city count we only need 15 cities to have traderoutes to for now. Gandhi + Vicky + Mansa + Hatty = 17 cities, so they will do for now.
I suggest we close borders with Alex for a few turns to delay his exploration of the world to our west, we can do this without penalty right?

And to put this post to a close a shot of the "improved" tech screen (aka Foreign advisor):

WOW ! ! !
Look at Vicky and Toku! They allready have Calander??!?!?!?!?!
Our closest neighbours dont seem particularly intrested in the religious techs?
We could use a gift of mysticism to Toku to get open borders with him? Does that work?

Mansa (as usual) is AI tech leader :goodjob: (I think), He also has Priesthood + CoL beyond meditation + poly
 
It would take more than that, especially with Aggressive AI on. The most reliable way to Open Borders with Toku other than sharing religion is by adopting Mercantilism... which obviously is not a good idea. :lol:
 
I've already (in my mind) written Tokugowa off as an impassable pain my tukus. I typically assume the only way I'll see what are in his lands is if I'm lucky enough to have my religion (with shrine) sneak into one of his cities.
 
@Bob... :lol:

@Both: Bob and Robo
I dont hope to keep OBs with him for ever, just in case we run into his borders and cannot go any further.... We may want OBs to get past this blockade...

I must say I feel a little disappointed to only get a reaction at this point tho. No thoughts what-so-ever about anything else I wrote...
 
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