SGOTM 03 - Team VQ

[namliaM]

re: Great Sci... don't research Gunpowder so G.Sci will research Physics, Electricity over Chemistry and Biology.

No... Accoording to the tech list & Tree, Biology will allways be earlier on the list than Electricity...
Also No gunpowder => No Chemistry = No Frigates... I thought we had that high on the list for "needs"???

The plan is not that hard...
First Mine those 2 grass hills near Moscow with our worker.
Mix in a warrior or 2 to fogbust our island before the advent of Axemen?
Now grow moscow to size 5 and either
- Put 1 turn into a galley & Whip it for 2 pop
- Start a settler (delay TGLight 5-6 turns) and whip that for 2 pop.
Finish TGLight.

Chop everything baring 1 forrest around St. Petes to hurry along the Mids.
Try to pre-chop/road the forrests so we can time the chops to work the forrests as long as possible & Finish the mids ASAP. We need to keep atleast the Plain spice forrest and 2 grass forrests to work them at size 4 (+the clams), these forrests should be kept. Also the Mids should be whipped to completion, TGLight should not (due to the 50% wonder whip penalty, whipping the Mids gets 100% bonus for stone... So this ends up beeing no bonus & no penalty, but secures mids (way) faster)
Somewhere in the mids build St.Petes will reach size 4, build a worker 1 turn (2 turns may be possible but 1 turn is safe) & whip it for 2 pop. Continue the Mids. Balance tiles for production/growth as we will grow faster than the whip will wear off.
We dont need another Workboat for St.Petes untill we get the Mids!

I still say, on tech, pick up Math & Alpha... Trade for IW. We wont be looking offshore for settling for a while yet... and we dont have any info offshore... so why do we want to go find Iron, if we dont even know where it may be? I can see the logic if we have plenty of free unsettled land around us, which we arent immediatly going to grab... and need to proiritize... As is... we are going to settle our "homeland" ASAP anyway with (I think):
- Moscow
- St.Petes
- Copper/military city
- The passage (possibly one east?? for a 2 hammer production boost)
- B
- E
for a total of 6 cities.
Just for quick reference, I am talking about this map, which Dot made.

I like C for the production of the site, but this leaves a lot of tiles between C and Moscow needing A to pick that up and I think we desided we didnt want 7 cities.
Also I like moving The passage 1 east, this is a much stronger site. Due to the higher production (5 base hammers instead of 4 & eventually higher commerce too. The basic trade is 2 Ocean tiles (2/0/1) + Gem Hill (1/2/6?) for 2 grass (cottage?) tiles and a normal hill (1/3/0). I dont know if settling on gems does anything for the CC.
Tho I can also understand if we take it on that spot as it means way earlier commerce. It will take atleast 50 turns of working those to grass cottages to get even, I wouldnt even venture a guess at how long it will take to catch up the difference.

Further to the Math vs IW matter.
- Trading math for IW is a possible trade (Math is more expensive) where the reverse is not.
- Math starts us towards Currency
- IF we can get Math early enough (now that the Mids have been delayed a turn or 2, we just may) we get the 50% bonus on chops => earlier mids?

Because of the trade, we would either research math & trade IW or research both or trade IW + Something (alphabet?) for math.
Also the other benifit of IW (chopping jungle) we wont need untill we have settled B and Copper. So that is atleast 2 settlers away.

Do we want to farm up St. Petes? or Cottage it?
- Farm: Mucho specialists but corrupt the GE genpool (with scientists?).
- Cottage: Earn money and keep the GE genpool clean

Do we want to add HG to St. Petes? Doubling the GE genpool.

 

[dot]

we cross-posted and pointed our finger at each other

since you are the team leader and did indeed posted seconds before I do, alrighty then.

Got it.

Hey now you can't cross point the leadership mantle at me!! I've already cast my vote for you to be El Jefe Mejor. And as you've so nicely decided to be up next, I can only bow to your wisdom.

The Fun Is Back!

I really liked all this planning stuff like namliaM and I did. I've learned a lot from that, already. And there I have to thank the MPW for digging into it and letting me get some insight into how whipping works and planning can be done.

But I started to feel more and more uncomfortable about the rest of the team falling so silent. namliaM has written something pointing in that direction, too. So it's good to see that I (maybe we) haven't been scaring you off!

I think nobody dare to take up the save, as most of us are utterly confused on how to proceed next, and fear of messing up namliam"s master-whip-plan ... well at least I am

[...]

I see namliaM and dot has each played 40 turns, a tad too much IMHO (8 player roster, 40 turns each ==> 320 turns in 1 round -- half the game gone! ). Please drop to 20 turns (or fewer) each for the remainder of this round.

As for not daring to pick up the save:
To put it very simple (@namliaM: Correct me if I'm horribly wrong):

- Get TGL in Moscow,
- Get the Mids in St Pete,
- Maybe get a galley out,
- And a settler to settle the copper site.

A warrior to guard that City would be nice, too.

As for the number of turns. Yep. Thanx for the . I admit that I might have been a bit too enthusiastic.

Regards, .

 

[dot]

Ah crosspost again. Will read yours now namliaM ....

Edit:

Do we want to add HG to St. Petes? Doubling the GE genpool.

Yes. And therefore cottage St Pete. My vote only.

On moving the Passage one tile east. Yes! It's better for B and E. And we have way enough gems to mine!

Regards, .

 

[GreyFox]

I have looked at the save, and want some answers before I play:

I can't fathom why we want to build the pyramids in St. Pete. It takes 750 hammers, and there is only 3 hammers available in St Pete. Even if we whip every 15 turns, with 44 hammers overflow in every whip, it will still take St Pete a whopping 100 turns to complete the mids.

I would have instead switch to a galley, and build the mids in Moscow after TGL.

Please enlighten me where I think wrong.

-

 

[dot]

I have looked at the save, and want some answers before I play:

I can't fathom why we want to build the pyramids in St. Pete. It takes 750 hammers, and there is only 3 hammers available in St Pete. Even if we whip every 15 turns, with 44 hammers overflow in every whip, it will still take St Pete a whopping 100 turns to complete the mids.

I would have instead switch to a galley, and build the mids in Moscow after TGL.

Please enlighten me where I think wrong.

Hi GreyFox.

• The stone is hooked up at Moscow and traded to St Pete via the coast.
• Making 750 Hammers more like 375.
• The monument has been whipped at St Pete. The overflow shall go into the mids (with the stone bonus).
• Whip a worker (maybe two ) later at St Pete. We get a production bonus for workers. The overflow is to be used for the Mids again.
• Once St Pete's borders expand you can also work the forrested plains spices.
• Then prechop some of the woods. Delay the final chop as long as possible.

Now why to do that at all? Why not build them at Moscow after that?

1. If we'd go TGL >> Mids in Moscow we'd almost certainly miss out on the latter.
2. Keep the gene pool as clean as possible. We might need the engineers later.
3. 

I hope that I've been able to clarify a few of your questions.

Regards, .

 

[namliaM]

Yeah Fox, what the . says. We can finish the mids in Petes pre-turn 120 still. This will never happen if we build it in Moscow.

I outlined a rough game plan a few posts above and a verry detailed one (which the . allready changed) a few posts before that.

Just quick for petes
Overflow from the Obelisk => ~35 raw hammers.
Balancing the growth in petes, working the 3 forrests so we dont grow to size 4 with unhappy.
Work clams + Grass Forrest to size 3
Clams + Forrest + Plain spice forrest to 4 (Balance Forrest+Forrest+Plain Forrest to not grow into unhappy)
At size 4, add a forrest and stay at size 4 for 3-4 turns (to get some hammers in, but not more becuase we need the worker to pre-chop)
Start worker, build it 1 turn only! and whip it for 2 pop, get some 40 ! overflow.
Size 2 work Clams and Grass forrest
Size 3 add Plains spice forrest
We should reach size 4 again just in time when adding the 4 chops (30 per forrest) and a 2 pop whip at the end should net us the Mids ~120. Hopefully we can have Maths by then for the 50% chop bonus (if so we wont need the 2 pop whip at the end!)

TGL will never finish pre turn 105 (not sure with the new plan by the .) and we can never get the mids in 15 turns in Moscow.

Edit: This is what we have been going on about in the first 7-8 pages...

 

[Cosmichail]

Edit: This is what we have been going on about in the first 7-8 pages...

me laughs

pardon moi for my silence but RL has been getting in the way and really don't have much to add anyways since we have two geniuses at work. I am kind of with Greyfox on the master plan but once in the captains chair will know what to do.

Just a couple of observations and what a lot of whipping may do in the long run. The new and improved AI is quite quick at growing huge cities and teching very fast. We should at some point think about finalizing our plans in the whipping department and let our cities grow, grow and grow. It seems to me be the only way to keep up with the new and improved AI. Several things I have noticed. The AI will travel far to get health/growth resources. (seen toku travel way far from his capitol just to settle near a health resource) They will always beeline to Monarchy and use lots of MP's. This new patch also really can do a number on you if you overexpand. Perhaps use culture to "smother" our island first and leave some room for future growth but in the beginning any more than five cities can be a crippler.

Just my thoughts......

 

[namliaM]

I agree cosmic, once the wonders are in... we will have to be carefull about the whip, only whipping to pollish of unhappy people...

In my test games I was not that out expanded. Only a couple of AI had 3 cities and only 1 or 2 had 4. Those lucky AI b*st*rds with bigger islands or on shared islands that out expanded the other AI.
IMHO we should be OK. Also we have the extra happyness from the mids (forget the name but you know what I mean). We should grow into it, BUT first lets make sure we get what we all? wanted to get!

We should however all be thinking about the next question at hand:
do we research Math => Alpha or go for IW=>Compass?

 

[GreyFox]

In continuation of the grand plan put forth by namliaM, I removed the pop working on the fish and have him work on a forested hill in Moscow. I have also started the pyramids in St Pete.

Upon moving the warrior towards the cross, I saw hatty's color:

Might as well meet her first before moving to the cross.

wooo ... score leader, eh? Notice also Judaism founded message ...

Got pottery 1 turn earlier by running 100% science for 1 turn:

Turns out the the Jews in theis game has a big fat mole on their chin

Started to head towards Mathematics by going for Writing.

Then out of no where a bald head pops up:

and spread us hinduism.

Thank you very much for your welcome gift. We should not convert, but we should definitely build ourselves a temple for happiness (once we learn the appropriate tech through trade or research).

The AI have been busy pumping out wonders one after another ...

Not to be left behind, we got our first objective exactly on the 100th turn, thanks to a forest-convert-to-mine hill near Moscow.

I rushed the worker exactly 1 turn after St Pete grows to 4 (which happens exactly on the turn where the previous whip oppression penalty disappears). I see no reason in waiting 3-4 turns ... what's the point? Might as well whip it right then, and grow back while waiting for the penalty to disappear. Perhaps whip a workboat next when the penalty disappears, since we have expanded to the 2nd clams as well.

One point to note is the worker north of St Pete has 3 turns left of chopping, remember to move him away the very next turn, lest the forest will be chopped.

>>> Save (1000BC) <<<

Spoiler Extracted Log :

Turn 81, 1570 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 82, 1540 BC: Mao Zedong adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 83, 1510 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Mao Zedong converts to Judaism!

Turn 86, 1420 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 90, 1300 BC: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land!

Turn 94, 1180 BC: Hinduism has spread in St. Petersburg.

Turn 95, 1150 BC: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!

Turn 96, 1120 BC: You have trained a Worker in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on The Pyramids.

Turn 97, 1090 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 99, 1030 BC: VQ has completed The Great Lighthouse!

 

[GreyFox]

Oh, One More Thing (TM):
I started a warrior in St Pete, idea is to get a settler next for our third city.

Roster
namliaM
Dot
Greyfox == Lightened up the coast
Robo Kai == UP for stone piling
Furrie == On Deck
Cosmichail
Bobrath
Scowler

Remember: 20 turns for remainder of this round.

 

[namliaM]

Fox,
The reason for waiting a few turns is to get some needed hammers. By whipping "to soon" you probably delay the mids a turn or 2...

Nice followup tho... We seem to be a bit surrounded by AI allready.... I agree on the settler but I would go Warrior=> Warrior=> Warrior (to fully fogbust our lands) and only then go for the Settler(s).

We also need a galley, if someone feels the need to whip St. Petes that would be the target (for 2 pop), but we can probably use the 2 pop better to whip the Mids... that should be in about 20 turns?
Whipping the mids for 2 pop yields 45 raw hammers. Whipping a worker yields 40 raw hammers. Maybe we should whip a worker, tho this delays the Mids a turn or 2.

Remember to road them forrests... and balance st.petes not to grow to fast, but get extra hammers... Also where is our second worker? We need him down at St. Petes to pre-chop them forrests ASAP.

An extra workboat for ST.petes should come from Moscow, I would start a Lib next.

Edit:
Dont forget OBs when writting is in

Also we want max hammers in St. Petes, Clams + Plains Spice. Add a forrest on size 3.

 

[GreyFox]

Fox,
The reason for waiting a few turns is to get some needed hammers. By whipping "to soon" you probably delay the mids a turn or 2...

Hmm ... maybe, but to me its either (a) you stay at size 4 get some hammers, whip, then reduce hammers before growing back, or (b) you whip, reduce hammer while growing back, and get more hammers when you grow back .... to me there is no difference, plus whipping earlier give us the choice of whipping again if we are so inclined.

The other worker is off roading ... ... I figured we won't be chopping so soon since we wanted maths to be in, and 1 worker takes 6 turns to chop (1 turn to move, 5 turns to chop), so I figured we don't need the extra worker to be chopping.

I think we need the settler earlier then later. A few AIs already have the capability to settle on our island.



Lastly, a warning:

Regretably, I reloaded the game due to a crash. Instead of starting from the autosave, I decided to start from the save since nothing important has happened anyway. Please don't repeat my mistake. ALWAYS RELOAD FROM AUTOSAVE IF YOU CRASHED.

--

 

[namliaM]

Hmm ... maybe, but to me its either (a) you stay at size 4 get some hammers, whip, then reduce hammers before growing back, or (b) you whip, reduce hammer while growing back, and get more hammers when you grow back .... to me there is no difference, plus whipping earlier give us the choice of whipping again if we are so inclined.

This -normaly- is true, but the timing (in my tests/excel sheet) is/was so that delaying the whip a few turns worked best. Offcourse this only goes for getting Mids ASAP. For anything else you offcourse are right.
*actually*
[lesson=whipping]
the optimum for whipping is at the end of the foodbar where you have 1 turn left to grow on you max pop. This ensures fastest recovery... & allows you to work the "optimum* tiles you want/need without having to force your city to work the food tiles to grow.
[/lesson]
There are offcourse exceptions to this rule (i.e. Granary)... but in general this is true...

We do have a few turns "left over" with 2 workers chopping but I also usualy road the forrests to safe time on the final chops. we could forgo the roading saving 3 turns/forrest. Losing 1 turn/forrest again on the final chop, when finishing chops the 1 turn lost can be crucial.

... since we wanted maths to be in, and 1 worker takes 6 turns to chop (1 turn to move, 5 turns to chop), ....

With 1 turn left on this one, and three more to go = 25 turns. I think we will find we get Math before then. If this is what we want... I dont recall the TEAM taking a firm decision on that.
I for one, after writing, would like to research Math => Alpha and trade for IW. Some others have proposed Researching IW for the earlier spotting of Iron.

I think we need the settler earlier then later. A few AIs already have the capability to settle on our island.

You allready seen galleys?

Please don't repeat my mistake. ALWAYS RELOAD FROM AUTOSAVE IF YOU CRASHED.

LOL You got contacted by some admins?

The matter of the early settler... How much will our settling delay if we start encountering barb Axemen on our island?? I would like to make sure we dont let that happen cause we would have to pick up archery to deal with that (or make quite some warriors).
In the spirit of fog busting, I suggest we move the warrior that is now on the cross to the Gem hill, while the second warrior (now beeing produced) trails behind to the cross.

 

[Meatbuster]

Crud, I AM UP!?!?!?!
The horror! Someone save me! *hides under bed*
This may be the most pressure I've ever felt in an SG. I'll play tomorrow, to give me some time to reread over all the plans. How many turns should I play?

 

[GreyFox]

Yes, you're up, RK. I would say play 20 turns.

@namliam: I don't mean galleys, but the cultural border is now allowing Alex and Hatty to settle over our land ... and thy will do sooner rather than later.

Re: Maths vs Iron: I think by going for Writing, I had pretty much decide for the team that Maths is the way to go.

Re: Settler vs Warrior: the barbs is also one reason why I would rather have settlers than warrior ... settling city would have less barbs too. But we have to be careful there, and sooner or later we need to grab archery for a more effective defense against barbs.

Re: the admins: yeah, got a warning, which surprises the hell out of me ...

--

 

[namliaM]

@namliam: I don't mean galleys, but the cultural border is now allowing Alex and Hatty to settle over our land ... and thy will do sooner rather than later.

Alex no, Hathy yes...

Re: Maths vs Iron: I think by going for Writing, I had pretty much decide for the team that Maths is the way to go.

I think it was allways Writting first as we need it to get OBs which we need to start making use of TGlight.

Re: Settler vs Warrior: the barbs is also one reason why I would rather have settlers than warrior ... settling city would have less barbs too. But we have to be careful there, and sooner or later we need to grab archery for a more effective defense against barbs.

No fog = no barbs. Copper city => Axemen => No need for Archery
As long as we dont see any barb Axe' we should be OK without Archery....

A settler ASAP would need to go north to the Cow/Fish (B) sight. As this is the only spot we can settle (at the moment) without the potential threat of barbs razing it/killing the settler.
More cities = more commerce = Math sooner?

Re: the admins: yeah, got a warning, which surprises the hell out of me ...

which is why we got HOF I guess... Well good to know "big brother is watching us"

This may be the most pressure I've ever felt in an SG.

No pressure Robo, we planned and schemed, to see if it is possible... Well it is... now all we do is try and make it work.
The plan is simple tho
1) Get the Pyramids
Pre-chop (atleast) 4 grass forrests, possibly road them if you have the time.
Wait for the "perfect time", which is / should be when the pyramids have ....
750 (cost pyramids) - Chops - Whip - Additional production
Pre-math:
750 - 4 * 60 - 90 - 20 = 750 - 240 - 90 - 10 = 410 hammers in
Post-Math:
750 - 4 * 90 - 90 - 20 = 750 - 360 - 90 - 10 = 290 hammers in

The 2 pop whip is on the Mids them selves right now. I still am wondering how/if we can maximize a worker whip to get something like 80-85 hammers into the Mids + a worker instead of just 90 into the Mids. (offcourse I should have done this allready before we whipped the first worker there.. but what is a few hammers?...)

2) Get some warriors and Settlers
Fogbust and settle our Island ASAP

3) Have fun

 

[Meatbuster]

Turn 102 (970 BC):
Warrior is in, Moscow can start...
a Work Boat for 4 (my current pick)
a Warrior for 2
a Settler for 13
a Library for 12

Writing is in.
Open Borders with everyone. Note that the enemies are Mao vs Gandhi. If Gandhi asks us to stop trading with Mao, we can refuse at no penalty.
Math takes 23 turns. Stop!
What to research next? Are you sure Math will be fine? I don't think it will make it to the 'mids in time. Guess we'll have to do without the improved chops... but we'll see.
Pyramids are now 258 hammers in.

I must note the dramatic improvement with Open Borders. Reduced Math from 38 turns to 23 turns.

***

I bravely press on.
Moscow: Workboat
Research: Math

Turn 106:
Moscow builds boat. Start Warrior (2 turns). Population takes 3 turns to go up.
St. Petes is now size 3, says Pyramids have 60 turns left. Now producing 8 hammers a turn (including stone bonus) and will grow in 13.

Turn 108:
Moscow builds Warrior. Start Settler. Population would've taken 1 turn to go up.
Accept Hatty's cow-for-clam trade. Cancel when we get cow.

Turn 110:
Unfortunately, all the best-laid plans go to waste... and I don't think chopping the forests now would've helped either. I CRY FOUL! Now I must pause play and sit in a corner for 6-24 hours.

 

[dot]

@Robo Kai:

• I'm torn. I was originally voting for IW. I still think it's good. And a must. But I also think that maths is very useful. we might be able to trade it for IW after we've researched alpha ... which would still be quite some way to go. And if we'd like to have a clean gene pool at St Pete for engineers we might want to grab the Hanging Gardens there, too? Team?
  >> I'd vote for maths.
• As for moscow. Warrior >> Warrior >> Warrior! Fogbusting is the way to go, methinx.

Not to be left behind, we got our first objective exactly on the 100th turn, thanks to a forest-convert-to-mine hill near Moscow.
[...]
Turn 99, 1030 BC: VQ has completed The Great Lighthouse!

@GreyFox:

Great turnset. And thanx for getting us TGL even pre100.

Greetings fellow players, the .

 

[Meatbuster]

Cross-postededited. Mister ., see edited post above for bad news.

While I am glad it's not entirely my fault (more of the AI's for starting on 'mids too early for comfort), I still feel bad. Oh well, we can always beeline Constitution. :suicide:

Guess we'll have to wait until the final spoiler and final results to find out if the lighthouse was better than the 'mids in the long run.

Now I have to wait for input. What now? Galley at St. Pete's and send Settler+a warrior all the way to the copper site? Settle the cow site?

 

[dot]

Man. What time is it around your place? Way past midnight? So relax!

Too bad that we've missed out on the mids. At least that gives us one more producer to settle our island soon. And maybe have a library ... to get us a GS! Or we could produce a settler there, too, and then go for the Hanging Gardens. But I somehow think we might be better off with the library! Maybe even getting The Great Library.

Well now we have to wait for the team to check in! Team?

And missing the Mids could always have happend! So here we are. Now namliaM's and my nice plans are busted. >> Welcome back on the strategy bus, folks.

Kind regards, .